Posted on 08/23/2007 6:10:43 PM PDT by annalex
I think the thing that brought me through the home stretch was teaching through the book of Romans. In the Protestant tradition, Romans is the book par excellence on justification by faith alone. This provided my undoing. Finally, I'm into the text that evangelicals and Protestant love the most, and I find that the distinctive doctrines of the Reformation are not taught there. They're just not there. I found that Paul's disgust with works of the law is not a disgust with human striving to please God, but with the Jewish community's vain imagination that because they performed the works of the law, the practices that keep them distinct from the Gentiles, that they have special status with God. As I taught on justification, I saw that Paul did think that justification by grace through faith changes a person's life. All these arcane arguments out of the Reformation about extrinsic justification were only so much hooey. The Apostle Paul would have said, "this is a waste of time, guys. This is not the point." In 1 Corinthians chapter 6, justification and sanctification are linked together . . . God doesn't merely impute righteousness to you, but He does something in the soul to make you righteous.
Paul also expected the obedience of faith. It's as though faith is the response of trust, in the same way that obedience is the response of the will. Here you've got a gospel which is quite different than the gospel that is commonly preached. This was disturbing to me. I began to say to myself, "if I don't believe in the doctrine of justification by faith alone, where am I gonna go?" I didn't really think of myself going into Catholicism at all. I thought, maybe Eastern Orthodoxy. This was around 1988, 1989.
Another thing I learned while teaching through Romans was the inescapability of suffering if we are to share in His inheritance and glory. There was something about it in Romans 8 where the Apostle Paul actually links suffering; you must suffer . . . it seemed so contrary to, other than, the gospel I was used to hearing preached. Most of the gospel preaching you hear is, "come to Jesus because He will fulfill you; you'll receive some benefit." It's true, you do receive some benefit, so I don't despise all of that. But there's something wrong when the call to Jesus is not also accompanied with a call to suffer with Him. It's as if you're called to the resurrected Christ, but not the suffering Christ; as if people are given the crown without the cross. That struck me because I knew Catholics were big into crucifixes, and I said to myself, "they probably have some insight on this." And a Catholic friend of mine emphasized Colossians where Paul talks about "making up in his body that which was lacking in Christ's afflictions," and I thought, "now that makes sense of this teaching in Romans 8. Crucifixes make sense." It's as though people have to be reminded that there's no crown without the cross. Our baptism into Jesus is a baptism into His death. Christ's work is quite complete, but the application of it has to go on in the world, and so it's in that sense that we share His suffering because we are members of His body, applying the work of redemption which He wrought for us on Calvary.
Thirdly, I became aware that the apostles believed in sacraments of some sort; undeveloped, I think. But definitely there was a sacramental awareness. The baptism referred to in Romans 6 really is wet. In the mind of the apostles, water and spirit were not separate entities. The images go together: baptized by water and spirit, the washing of regeneration in Titus. And I began to think more and more about this: where do you find unbaptized Christians in the New Testament? You don't. Then I began making a list of what Paul says about baptism and faith. And I found out that the same things that are being said about faith are also being said about baptism. I came to the conclusion that in some mysterious way, they believed that when a person was baptized, there was some change that happened. I was convinced that it was far more than just a symbol.
The same thing happened with the Eucharist, when I taught about that, later on. I began to feel that I was just playing church, whenever we had the Lord's Table. It seemed so clear to me from 1 Corinthians 11, Luke 24, that Jesus was present in some real way in the Lord's Table. I knew that I could no longer participate, or preside over the Lord's Table.
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church
Thank you for your comments last week.
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
The Holy Spirit does not come though water baptism, he precedes baptism. He regenerates the heart of those who believe the message and water baptism is a secondary, outward sign of an inward change.
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
From Calvinist to Catholic
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
How I led Catholics Out of the Church [Steve Wood]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
**Another thing I learned while teaching through Romans was the inescapability of suffering if we are to share in His inheritance and glory.**
Very true interpretation of precepts as taught by the Catholic Church. A lot of people (including some Protestants) don’t understand the suffering part of life. We can suffer as Christ suffered (and even offer it up for the Poor Souls in Purgatory.)
Granted — our suffering is minute in comparison with the suffering that Christ suffered for us.
I really don’t understand why this concept is so misunderstood, when we are encouraged to take up our Cross daily and follow Christ.
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This is a very shallow statement to make. Why single out protestants? Incidentally, many protestants learned about suffering at the hands of Catholics.
"We can suffer as Christ suffered (and even offer it up for the Poor Souls in Purgatory.)"
Salvation comes by the one time suffering and death of Christ on the cross. An individual's suffering may benefit his or her own character, but they have no value in paying for the sins of another.
Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,
Then God is not configuring us into the pattern of his son.
But we know that he is.
My friend, only the blood of a spotless lamb could be offered up in the temple for the sins of the people.
"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" - 1st Peter 1:18
The ONLY thing mentioned in the NT that can cleanse a person of sin is the blood of Christ. Please search and see - and tell me if I am wrong.
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Christians are indeed being made like Christ - but there are certain things about Christ that will be forever unique - his ability to suffer and pay for our sins in one of those things! Remember in the Revelation...
"I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?" And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders said to me, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals."
There are certain things that Christ alone can do.
Looks like you haven't gotten around to reading John's Gospel.
"Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5
You conveniently omitted that many Catholics learned about suffering at the hands of protestants.
“Looks like you haven’t gotten around to reading John’s Gospel.”
The origial statement was: “In the mind of the apostles, water and spirit were not separate entities. “
Matthew clearly shows that they were indeed seperate entities. John does not dispute that.
I wish Al elaborated on justification more than he did. However, Rom 5: 18-19 does not say anything about extrinsic justification or imputed righteousness. It says, many will be made righteous. The plain reading is the Catholic reading, -- men will be made anew, not recomputed.
This is the operative verse from 1 Corinthians that Al makes reference to: "such [injust] some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God". Juistification is sanctification. Separating the two is a bunch of hooey.
We are saved in order to do good works - not as a result of good works
This is an unscriptural slogan (unlike the radio Al I am a polite man using polite words). The scripture teaches otherwise: "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only (James 2:24).
This is solid evangelical teaching
That by applying our suffering to the Cross we reach sanctification is Evangelical teaching?
Undeveloped???M
Again, I wish he elaborated, but indeed the sacrament of laying of hands is used in several ways in the scripture, it is hard to disambiguate confirmation from baptism, some aspects of the sacrament of penance are not made explicit, the issue of baptism of infants left unresolved.
reading Matthew's gospel
The issue is Christian baptism, both of the water and of the spirit, not Johannine baptism of water onto repentance.
In Acts 10 [you find unbaptized Christians]
No, Acts 10 confirms what Al is saying: as soon as one believes, the first thing to do is to baptise, not do a Bible study. The gift of the Holy Ghost is inseparable from the sacraments of the Church..
Because of the superstitious fear of "works salvation".
The verses you quote show that the suffering of Christ is one time and unique, however, they do not speak of our connection to that suffering through the suffering in our own body, or to the sacrifice of the Mass. Other verses do:
24 [I, Paul] now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister (1 Col)24 ... Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. (1 Cor 11)
Perhaps I can shed a bit of light on how Catholics interpret the Scriptures.
"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." - Rom 5: 18-19
God's plan of salvation of mankind is operative through the one Man, just as Paul ALSO discusses how man fell through the operation of one man, Adam. Paul is not saying that we will receive some legal ticket because of Jesus' actions. Rather, the gates of heaven will be opened by Christ - and it is up to our cooperation with God's graces on whether OUR righteousness is "greater than the scribes" so as to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
We are saved in order to do good works...
Can you show me a precedent in Scriptures where a disobedient servant will enter into His Master's rest? Since we are made to do good works (Eph 2:10 and so forth), than clearly, those who do not obey God are disobedient, for "even the pagans can know Him". The promises are held out ONLY to those who obey God - that is how Covenants work.
They may be guilty of leading people astray if they do not finish teaching that in coming to Jesus you are accepting a role of servant to the Lord.
You are correct. There are numerous Protestants who also teach this, as well.
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
This does not mean that water will NO LONGER BE USED or has no effect. John is merely saying that there will be something MORE to water baptism that will follow his own baptism of repentance that he gave. God clearly acts invisibly through the visible water - whether it was Naaman the leper, or Jesus - whom only John saw the Spirit alighting upon Him in the form of a dove. Jesus sets the precedent for our own baptisms. We, too, receive the Spirit to begin our "ministry" at baptism.
The Holy Spirit does not come though water baptism, he precedes baptism. He regenerates the heart of those who believe the message and water baptism is a secondary, outward sign of an inward change.
The Holy Spirit precedes into the heart of ALL men, blowing where He wills, whether they are baptized or not (Romans 2). The OT Scriptures clearly show that prophets, kings, and priests also received the Spirit. However, "don't you know you were baptized into Christ's death?" DURING water baptism, the Spirit comes in a special and unique way. As a result of this baptism, invisibly effective as a result of the Holy Spirit, we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. Mystically, WE have DIED with Him and ROSE with Him. These are Paul's words in Romans 6, and He speaks as such in numerous Scriptures in the "syn-Christo" theme (like Christ). The Bible tells us that Baptism SAVES. It is not merely a show-ritual that means nothing. Christ wouldn't command His apostles upon His ascension to "baptize in the name of the Father..." as His last command if it had no effect (which is effective BY the Spirit working invisibly).
Hope these explanations help understand another point of view on Scripture interpretations.
Regards
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