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To: Forest Keeper; D-fendr; MarkBsnr; blue-duncan; xzins
Every word in the Bible is quoted through a human conduit. The only possible way it could matter if the conduit was relaying a dream or an eyewitness experience is if one thinks that the Bible contains error

From the Greek Archdiocese of America (emphasis added):

[T]he Holy Spirit inspires, and the sacred author follows the Holy Spirit's injunctions, utilizing his own human and imperfect ways to express the perfect message and doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

In this sense, we can understand possible imperfections in the books of the Bible, since they are the result of the cooperation between the all-perfect and perfecting Divine Author, the Spirit, and the imperfect human author. Biblical textual criticism is completely normal and acceptable by the Orthodox, since they see the Bible in this light. Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit

If you mix clean clothes with soiled linen, you don't end up with clean linen, but with soiled clothes. That which is pristine, when mixed with the corrupt, itself becomes corrupt.

The Gospels represent direct quotes (although in ancient times even the practice of "quoting" did not follow modern rules; instead, writers would paraphrase what they heard or read as best as they could recollect or as they believed the person they "quote" would have said it!).  So, while the Gospels are as close to direct quotes of God, their synergism (discarding plagiarism, which we do on an assumption more than fact) shows that they are the words spoken by Christ.

Our only corroborative authority is the written history of the Church practices and beliefs from as far back as posisble (Apostolic Fathers, +Ignatius, +Polycarp, etc.), and the earliest liturgical traditions (Didache, St. Justin Martyr, Liturgy of St. james [the Just]), etc. They are circumstantial evidence that what the Church believed and taught and practiced then si what it teaches, belies and practices today, which corroborate the Bible, collectivel called the Holy Tradition.  Even that evidence is not always genuine as some writings of +Ingantius are known forgeries. 

This places everything before and after the Gospels' time frame (Christ's minister on earth) on a different plane, because prophesies and visions cannot be distinguished from fantasy and hallucinations, FK.  

You say that Mary was without sin. Wouldn't that make her God under this view?

This is the heart of Orthodox disagreement with Catholics regarding BEV Mary. She remained pure by following God, and not of her own.  Is she was created unlike any one of us (Immaculate Conception) then her ability to resist sin was in her nature and not because she syngercistically cooperated with God's will in perfect obedience.

That doesn't follow. The Bible is FROM God THEREFORE it has no errors

Now, we know that not everyone who got hold of the Bible and made little changes was  inspired. Like I said, the very fact that we add commas is corrupting, since different locations of commas affect the meaning of the verses, we cannot claim inerrency. Additions of vowels have a potentially even greater effect. Thus, it is naïve to treat the existing copies of the Bible as some pristine work of God.

We really don't know what is genuine and what was added in time through written or even verbal corruption. For instance, we know that Comma Johanneum and Pericope Adulterae were added to the NT. We also know that the Gospel of Mark has an addition of some 10 verses at the very end. Clearly, people were fashioning the Bible according to their own taste and agenda. We also know that various authors change style, language, vocabulary and even the nature of their writings.  This is true of OT and NT authors. We also know that most of the books in the Bible are anonymous, yet they are ascribed with "certainty" to specific authors. We also know that some events in the Bible do not match the geography and history, etc. etc, etc.

But, there is always the option of sticking one's head into the sand and pretending the sun doesn't shine.

2,589 posted on 08/17/2007 10:40:05 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; xzins; ...
From the Greek Archdiocese of America: "Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit."

I cannot argue with the logic of this statement, but I certainly argue with its truth. If the Bible is littered with human error, then you cannot call it God's word. You would have to call it God and man's word. You also could not call it God's revelation. You would have to call it God and man's revelation. Is the Church able to explain why the cooperation of man and God produces error in the Holy Bible, YET, the cooperation of God and man in the Magisterium is infallible? I have never understood the view that a single man is fallible, but when you compound the problem by adding more fallible men to the mix, somehow the result is infallible. Perhaps if all the books of the Bible had been written by committee, then the Church would think it was perfect.

If you mix clean clothes with soiled linen, you don't end up with clean linen, but with soiled clothes.

Sure, that is EXCEPT for the Magisterium. In that SOLE case, when you take one soiled linen, and leave it alone, it remains soiled. However, if you add a bunch of other soiled linen, the result is clean, perfect and infallible. For some reason this applies to the Magisterium, but not to the Bible. Go figure. :)

This places everything before and after the Gospels' time frame (Christ's minister on earth) on a different plane, because prophesies and visions cannot be distinguished from fantasy and hallucinations, FK.

Yes, if God allowed the pollution of men into His Holy gift to us, then we should be very suspicious of the scriptures as fact. I just can't imagine why God would give us such a flawed gift. I mean, He asks the best from us, so why don't we get the best from Him?

Now, we know that not everyone who got hold of the Bible and made little changes was inspired. Like I said, the very fact that we add commas is corrupting, since different locations of commas affect the meaning of the verses, we cannot claim inerrency. Additions of vowels have a potentially even greater effect. Thus, it is naïve to treat the existing copies of the Bible as some pristine work of God.

Commas affect interpretation, not the perfect words themselves. And even with the commas we agree upon, interpretation is still all over the place depending on the faith. I've seen you speak about the vowel issue before, so I suppose that God either completely managed His gift to us, or He helped with some parts and left others to pure chance. If the latter, then it really wasn't much of a gift, it seems. I suppose the only thing of real value that leaves us with then is the Magisterium. It's amazing how it works out like that. :)

2,728 posted on 08/18/2007 2:25:48 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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