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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; kawaii; kosta50
And what “quality” control check do you have over the church’s interpretation of the truth? Is it the same “Gnostic” notion of inner spirit guiding them?

From what has been posted here, I have the impression that to belong to the Orthodox church, you must learn the original Greek language to be able to read the true scripture which only they possess. OR, you must blindly trust those who are teaching you, and believe that they are teaching you the truth.

3,041 posted on 08/19/2007 9:39:28 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: suzyjaruki; blue-duncan; xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50
From what has been posted here, I have the impression that to belong to the Orthodox church, you must learn the original Greek language to be able to read the true scripture which only they possess. OR, you must blindly trust those who are teaching you, and believe that they are teaching you the truth.

I think we have established that the scriptures are superfluous in the Orthodox Church. The teachings of the Orthodox Church (the traditions of men) have fully supplanted the scripture as the authority upon which they base their faith. They believe that their traditions are pure, whereas the scriptures are corrupt.

3,042 posted on 08/19/2007 9:47:27 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
whereas the scriptures are corrupt.

Only Non-Orthodox scripture is corrupt, but not the scripture they produced in Greek! However, you are right :),that tradition trumps scripture and we are back to that circular validation thing again.

3,043 posted on 08/19/2007 9:56:39 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: P-Marlowe; suzyjaruki; xzins; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50

“They believe that their traditions are pure, whereas the scriptures are corrupt.”

No, no, most noble LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*. Their’s is an ancient hermeneutic found in a Lewis Carroll manuscript.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone,” it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many things.”

“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master — that’s all.”


3,044 posted on 08/19/2007 10:06:24 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: hosepipe; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
Even a BAD translation is better than nothing.. better than a good translation of any other work.. Translation of biblical languages is a poorly paid little appreciated holy work.. Even the Vulgate translation to Latin is useful.. There must surely be a special place in heaven for those that have SPENT themselves on this pursuit.. I have no doubt..

I couldn't agree with you more, dear 'pipe!

Thank you for your observations about Christianity in China. I am hearing this, too, just as you report it.

Of course, hand-copied editions of the Holy Scriptures are rife with opportunities for errors to creep in. Still, you need this "dangerous book" to testify to the living faith and to transmit it to others; so you do what you can. If no printed texts are available, you hand copy. And may God ever bless them who undertake such a daunting task.

"Is God cool, or what?"

All praise and glory be to God!

3,045 posted on 08/19/2007 10:30:24 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
[.. Not only does it not follow, it seems that you’re cavorting with the Mormons again. ..]

Mormons?... and you're hanging with the psuedo angel Moroni..
Cause you're acting like a Moronite..

3,046 posted on 08/19/2007 10:36:50 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl

I would find no joy in heresy; Our Lord was thought of as being heretical against Judaism, not Christianity.

And heresy, for heresy’s sake, cannot be considered a good hing.


3,047 posted on 08/19/2007 10:39:03 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: suzyjaruki

Actually, the Church validated Scripture. And there it stops.


3,048 posted on 08/19/2007 10:40:04 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
...I have been accused of that and worse, of being led of Satan and also of being the "Whore of Babylon."

Jeepers Alamo-Girl, that's rich! Oh my.

Just turn the other cheek and count it all to God's glory.

3,049 posted on 08/19/2007 10:41:52 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: xzins

But it does not follow that such an apparent brilliant theologian was at the same time a theological thug and a temporal tyrant. His depressing theology took hope away from the people, mixing it with a message of hidden elitism, and removed the responsibility of one’s actions in their contribution towards life everlasting.

How could God Judge a pre programmed robot slave? That’s like creating a mechanical device in order to perform in a certain fashion and then discarding it simply because it performed what it was created to do, and the mechanical device, operating indistiguishably from the first, is exalted simply becuase it performed what it was created to do.

It makes no sense temporally or theologically.


3,050 posted on 08/19/2007 10:46:09 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: hosepipe

Hoser, dude. You were the one that brought up the pearl of great price. And you’re the one making some really contradictory statements.

Theological mess. Swim the Tiber and we’ll get out the Mr. Clean.


3,051 posted on 08/19/2007 10:48:44 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: betty boop
[.. "Is God cool, or what?" ..]

Indeed.. LoL..

3,052 posted on 08/19/2007 10:52:15 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MarkBsnr; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
[.. Hoser, dude. You were the one that brought up the pearl of great price. And you’re the one making some really contradictory statements. ..]

Oh! I now get your reference to the Mormon book.. but I was referring to the biblical metaphor of Jesus in the New Testament.. I missed your point, as you missed mine.. We passed each other in the fog of preaching..

What is it again you are preaching?..

3,053 posted on 08/19/2007 10:58:19 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Running On Empty

When you’re on very thin theological ice, and defense is tricky, offense is often a preferred methodology.

Let us remember all those who hear the little voices telling them what to do. According to http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2006/1689941.htm, about 10 percent of the population hear voices that aren’t there. Apparently Socrates and Joan of Arc heard voices, for instance. People bereaved may hear the newly deceased. Fervently religious may also hear voices.

It may be more usual than we realize.

Here’s the thing: just because you’re hearing a voice doesn’t make it right. And if you are justifying yourself on the basis of those voices, then anything is possible to justify.


3,054 posted on 08/19/2007 11:02:33 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: hosepipe

The same message as Fulton Sheen. Apparently my oratory and persuasive skills are considerably less than his.


3,055 posted on 08/19/2007 11:04:27 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; xzins; Forest Keeper
LOL. That's hilarious.

Jesuit jabberwocky.

3,056 posted on 08/19/2007 11:04:43 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Forest Keeper
Thanks for your reply; I'm sorry for my delay. We were discussing free will and determinism.

Sure

That's true

I agree.

That's right.

I'm tempted to take my points as granted and go home. However..

[Knowing what the result of allowing free will would be - foreknowing - God created man with free will.]
And that leaves God a limited sphere within which to create His plan.

He's not limited to choose this finite creation. It could have been different; His choice. It's still whatever sphere He chooses.

if God's plan is micro specific, as I suspect it is, then human free will would be a problem.

Only if God's omniscience is not "micro specific."

That's what I mean by random.

Your definition of random is just incorrect.

Now, what if God "needs" a particular pair to get together for His purposes?

If creation did not meet his purposes, He would have a different creation. He foreknew whether this particular pair would get together or not.

If God does not interfere,

Non sequitor. Foreknowing doesn't have anything to do with God not "interferring."

then He has to "wait" until a pair comes along that meets His specifications, AND freely decides to pair up.

He fore-knew. He fore-knew. He fore-knew.

We run the risk of humanizing God in these discussions and of reducing religion to philosophy. So I tread lightly in discussing logic. It's only a point because you maintain it's logically impossible, generally, for man to have free will and God to have a plan.

Your logic if flawed. God could have created differently; He knows everything; if He wished events in His creation differently; He would have created differently.

You argument continually limits God's omniscience and omnipotence. He's "waiting" for something (doesn't foreknow who/when); He has a "limited sphere" within which to work (He couldn't choose a different sphere).

Knowing - microknowing if you wish - what the result of allowing free will would be God created man with free will.

My point combines what we agree we know about God and what we know about man:

God is omniscient and omnipotent. We can take these as given. Man has free will. We know this from scripture, from the teaching of the Church for almost two thousand years, and from our personal experience of reality.

If you believe God has a plan and is omniscient and omnipotent, then this is your basic starting ground. Logic does not get in your way here.

3,057 posted on 08/19/2007 11:21:49 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: MarkBsnr
[.. The same message as Fulton Sheen. Apparently my oratory and persuasive skills are considerably less than his. ..]

Do you wear the same cape?.. They re-run old TV programs of his on my cable station.. The man is decked out like a RC super hero.. quite funny, I would say..

Yeah.. True... I feel guilty snickering at him..
He Must be the proto type of father Guido Sarducci(SNL)..

3,058 posted on 08/19/2007 11:34:13 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: papagall
how could men defeat God's sovereign plans? Is it so easy to edit out what God actually is instructing with the scriptures? You would answer that with a strong affirmative as evidenced by your many references to corruption and inferences that the texts cannot be trusted to do that which God intends. I would offer in reply that you do not actually understand what it is that God does with His words in the believer and what it is that He has designed into the Word such that even the corrupting you claim has not diminished the utility to which God directs His Word.

Amen! Great post.

"...what God does with His words in the believer..."

Precisely, amazingly, graciously so.

3,059 posted on 08/19/2007 11:39:54 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: hosepipe
Nope. I look more like these guys (sorry I don't have a personal photo of my place in the honour guard that I can upload).
3,060 posted on 08/19/2007 11:43:48 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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