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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^
| July 07
Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Forest Keeper
That’s interesting.
Both Dr. Schuller and his son are ordained Reformed ministers. I didn’t think that there was that amount of differentiation in the various Reformed religions, but in retrospect, there must be, since there have been so many branches of the Reformed since the movement began.
10,241
posted on
11/01/2007 6:44:23 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: MarkBsnr; Forest Keeper
Today, we have churches that follow Calvin and Luther and Knox and Schuller and Haggard and Roberts and...
"Today, we have churches that follow Calvin and Luther and Knox and Schuller and Haggard and Roberts and..." and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Cornelius Jansen and George Le Mesurier and...
10,242
posted on
11/01/2007 9:00:19 AM PDT
by
OLD REGGIE
(I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
To: Forest Keeper
“I thought you believe that God loves everyone and that all are His children.”
Yes,It is up to us to freely accept the love that God wills for all of us.We find this in the lives of the Saints.
A Saint is someone who “accepts” God’s will and fully embraces it,even if it means constant pain and a cross in their lives.They accept the will of God even if they don’t understand it at the time because the love they have for God exceeds anything beyond their own selfish will. It is a total emptying of self in order that Christ can use our human nature.
This is what we are all called to do,and it is the hardest thing for us to do as well. If we do this ,it opens us up to a love that is truly unconditional,that is, Christ’s love fully guiding us along with our love for Christ working together to bring the love of Christ to others through our human nature.
I wish you a Blessed day!
10,243
posted on
11/01/2007 9:29:44 AM PDT
by
stfassisi
("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
To: HarleyD
:::God knows our needs and desires but He is far more interested in carrying out what is best for us.:::
Shorter Catechism:
Q. 19. What is the misery of that estate whereinto man fell?
A. All mankind by their fall lost communion with God, are under his wrath and curse, and so made liable to all miseries in this life, to death itself, and to the pains of hell forever.
Are you saying that hell is best for the non elect?
10,244
posted on
11/01/2007 10:05:43 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: MarkBsnr
We agree with many of its points and disagree with those points which do not agree with the Church.
Of course. But how do you know what you are agreeing with and what you're discarding is correct? Simply because it was put up for a vote? I harp on indulgents simply because that went up for a vote as well.
The Eastern Fathers, absolutely all of them, and Westerners before Augustine, and even after him, saw that there is no reprobation, not even negative, except in consideration of demerits.
I would agree with the eastern fathers. I would disagree with the westerners. Augustine states in his Treatise of Predestination that he received his understanding from St. Cyprian who used Paul's text, "What do you have that you have not received." I think there is evidence. Please consider the follow from Clement of Rome:
Chapter XXXII.We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. - Clement of Rome, Book XXXII
This sounds like something Calvin would have written. Here's another:
Chapter X.The blessings that will flow from faith.If you also desire [to possess] this faith, you likewise shall receive first of all the knowledge of the Father. For God has loved mankind, on whose account He made the world, to whom He rendered subject all the things that are in it,to whom He gave reason and understanding, to whom alone He imparted the privilege of looking upwards to Himself, whom He formed after His own image, to whom He sent His only-begotten Son, to whom He has promised a kingdom in heaven, and will give it to those who have loved Him. And when you have attained this knowledge, with what joy do you think you will be filled? Or, how will you love Him who has first so loved you? And if you love Him, you will be an imitator of His kindness. And do not wonder that a man may become an imitator of God. He can, if he is willing. - St. Mathetes
I deliberately included St. Mathetes comment, "He can, if he is willing". While the Catholics would say, "Ah HA, Harley. Mathetes is talking about cooperation." I would refer you to the middle portion where Mathetes states, "And when you have attained this knowledge, with what joy do you think you will be filled? Or, how will you love Him who has first so loved you?". This again is precisely what Calvin, and Augustine states. It goes back to Cyprian's quote of Paul's writings, "What do you have that has not been given to you?"
Augustine did not see that,...
Augustine saw that perfectly clear, so much that he was willing to recall most of his life's work and burn them. He understood very well what the implications were. I can understand why Calvin couldn't quote Augustine enough.
In this theory, God wanted to display mercy and justice.
It isn't a "theory" any more that Clement's is theorizing. Augustine uses a lot of scripture for his argument.
St. Prosper of Aquitaine is often called the great defender of Augustine. But he clearly contradicted Augustine on the massa damnata , three times.
It all depends on what version you're using. There are five different versions of Prosper's writing and they move from a total support of Augustine's writings to one that is sympathetic to Pelagius. The latter works are suspected of being corrupted because Prosper was such a big supporter of Augustine and an outspoken critic of semi-Pelagius. The fact that erroneous documents of Prosper showed up should be confirmation that someone was trying to tamper with the books to get their own theological view across. It should also confirm that Augustine's view was a hot topic in the Church.
To: OLD REGGIE
Agreed.
Splintering is splintering, whether off a small branch or off the trunk.
10,246
posted on
11/01/2007 10:13:57 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: MarkBsnr
I was referring to Christians. "All things work together for good with those who love Him and are called according to His purpose."
To: Gamecock
10,248
posted on
11/01/2007 10:25:20 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: HarleyD
Are you saying that the Reformed God does nothing good for the non elect?
10,249
posted on
11/01/2007 10:26:46 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: HarleyD
How do I know what is to be kept and what is to be discarded? I believe in the Church of Jesus Christ. I believe that the Holy Spirit guides it, in spite of the fallible men that make it up. I believe that the Church is the pillar of truth. I have the faith that the Apostles have handed down over the millennia to me.
:::The Eastern Fathers, absolutely all of them, and Westerners before Augustine, and even after him, saw that there is no reprobation, not even negative, except in consideration of demerits.:::
Umm, the Eastern Fathers did believed in earned reprobation, as did most of the Western Fathers, with the exception of Augustine’s brief foray into heresy.
:::Almighty God has justified all men;:::
All men, not just the lottery winners. Calvin would not have written that.
:::If you also desire [to possess] this faith, you likewise shall receive first of all the knowledge of the Father. For God has loved mankind, on whose account He made the world, to whom He rendered subject all the things that are in it,to whom He gave reason and understanding, to whom alone He imparted the privilege of looking upwards to Himself, whom He formed after His own image, to whom He sent His only-begotten Son, to whom He has promised a kingdom in heaven, and will give it to those who have loved Him.:::
For God has loved mankind. Not just the lottery winners. All of it. He has made mankind, all of it, capable of salvation.
Augustine was in error and he recognized it. The reason that we have the Church is that it is far easier for a man alone to err than to have a learned body under the influence of the Holy Spirit err. Calvin quotes Augustinian error. He doesn’t quote Augustine overly much when he is in line with Church teachings, does he?
10,250
posted on
11/01/2007 10:39:01 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: MarkBsnr
Are you saying that the Reformed God does nothing good for the non elect? What do you mean by "good"? God makes it to rain on the just and the unjust. To the elect God give His great joy and comfort. To the non-elect God give travails. That is what being a Christian is all about.
Ecc 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.
I should get an extra point for quoting Ecclesiastes.
To: HarleyD
Ah, but it is rude to point.
:::Ecc 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.:::
All men are sinners, even the elect. Therefore we all ought to accept our travails and gather and heap up, even the Reformed elect. Now to whom do we give that which we have gathered? I suppose that this could be used in support of tithing to the Church.
10,252
posted on
11/01/2007 11:03:19 AM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: MarkBsnr
How do I know what is to be kept and what is to be discarded?
That is why you have the scripture. Iraeneus said it wasn't hard to understand.
You - :::The Eastern Fathers, absolutely all of them, and Westerners before Augustine, and even after him, saw that there is no reprobation... You - Umm, the Eastern Fathers did believed in earned reprobation
Perhaps you got lost in the conversation but I didn't make the claim that you are challenging, you did. I'm mystified why you would assert a claim and then post a rebuttal as if I made this statement. My position is that the Eastern fathers did not believe in election whereas the western fathers were mixed. The predominate view of the early western church was for election and eventually this was erased.
Almighty God has justified all men;:::All men, not just the lottery winners. Calvin would not have written that.
You're correct, Calvin would not have written all men are "lottery winners". Calvin would have written (and probably did somewhere) that God justifies all men. If you divorced yourself from your paradigm for one minute, then you would understand that "God justifies all men" can only mean God justifies those who are saved.
Augustine was in error and he recognized it.
That is why he recalled his books and wrote the Treatise of Predestination
Calvin quotes Augustinian error. He doesnt quote Augustine overly much when he is in line with Church teachings, does he?
I'm not sure. I never counted. The Church in Augustine's day was far different than in Calvin's day and is still different than is today (although not as much). I doubt if there be much that Calvin would have to say about Augustine's view of the Church's teachings at that time.
To: HarleyD
Thanks for the Baptist link. I use the WCF and the two Reformed Catechisms on a regular basis anyway.
Interesting home page:
:::We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents.:::
Uh huh.
:::I’ve been label a pessimistic Calvinist.:::
Wow. That’s quite a label.
:::I believe the reason the Orthodox tend to be so solid in their beliefs is because they hold a strong synergistic view. The reason Reformers are consistent is because we hold a strong monergistic view. I happen to think that the Orthodox with their minimization of the inspired scripture is the wrong view. Everyone else, including Catholics, are all over the page because they hold to synergistism but cling to parts of monergistism to varying degrees.:::
We’d consider the Orthodox to be so solid because they hold fast to the original teachings of Christ, whereas we have been Protestantized to some degree. We’re a little tainted, I’d say, whereas they are more pure. The current Vicar is attempting to clip off the tumours, as it were. Our perspective.
I appreciate your candor, sir. I am also appreciating the WCF and other confessions and catechisms that I wasn’t very aware of until I started to participate in this forum. They provide food for thought (although I think that I will have to use some theological Tums on occasion). Thank you.
10,254
posted on
11/01/2007 12:09:41 PM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: HarleyD
:::The Eastern Fathers, absolutely all of them, and Westerners before Augustine, and even after him, saw that there is no reprobation, not even negative, except in consideration of demerits. :::
You’ve gotta complete the sentence. It’s all that cherry picking of Scripture that you guys do, I guess. :)
The Western Fathers were not mixed; Augustine was the only one who wandered into this thought.
:::If you divorced yourself from your paradigm for one minute, then you would understand that “God justifies all men” can only mean God justifies those who are saved.:::
I don’t know about that. “God justifies all men” as a standalone phrase would seem to mean just that. Unless the Reformed use “all men” and “all elected men” interchangeably.
:::That is why he recalled his books and wrote the Treatise of Predestination:::
???
10,255
posted on
11/01/2007 12:40:45 PM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: MarkBsnr
:::We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. ...Uh huh.
Well, you know those wacky Baptists. If the Orthodox can say they're the original Christians, and the Catholics, why not the Baptists? Shoot, there a whole slue of people lining up for that title-including some truly non-Christian groups. Personally, I like to think of myself as more Orthodox Presbyterian with a few scruples. I'm the only original Harley-that's it! TA-DA! Sorry to disappoint.
Were a little tainted, Id say, whereas they are more pure. The current Vicar is attempting to clip off the tumours, as it were. Our perspective.
I would agree with that. I believe the Church of Rome has been drifting towards the eastern view for almost 1500 years. They are becoming far more synergisting in nature. While I think the Reformation was fought over a number of issues, I think it was inevitable. There were still monergists in the western church but as the Church drifted eastward there was no reconcilation. The Reformers really didn't leave Rome. Rome left them.
To: MarkBsnr
The Western Fathers were not mixed; Augustine was the only one who wandered into this thought.
Nonsense. Augustine tells us that he understood it from Cyprian. So that two. And I like to know how many Catholics would make the statement, "We are justified not by our own works, but by faith." as Clements did.
Unless the Reformed use all men and all elected men interchangeably.
It depends on the context. Surely Ceasar didn't ACTUALLY tax "all" the world.
That is why he recalled his books and wrote the Treatise of Predestination
It was not thus that that pious and humble teacher thoughtI speak of the most blessed Cyprianwhen he said "that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own."6 And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it?" [1 Cor. 4.7.] And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe on God is not God's gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God's grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate. Among these is that which you have mentioned in your letters,7 wherein is an exposition of certain propositions from the Epistle to the Romans. Eventually, when I was retracting all my small works, and was committing that retractation to writing,of which task I had already completed two books before I had taken up your more lengthy letters,when in the first volume I had reached the retractation of this book, I then spoke thus: "Also discussing, I say, 'what God could have chosen in him who was as yet unborn, whom He said that the elder should serve; and what in the same elder, equally as yet unborn, He could have rejected; concerning whom, on this account, the prophetic testimony is recorded, although declared long subsequently, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated,"' [Mal. 1.2,3. Cf. Rom. 9.13.] I carried out my reasoning to the point of saying: 'God did not therefore choose the works of any one in foreknowledge of what He Himself would give them, but he chose the faith, in the foreknowledge that He would choose that very person whom He foreknew would believe on Him,to whom He would give the Holy Spirit, so that by doing good works he might obtain eternal life also.' I had not yet very carefully sought, nor had I as yet found, what is the nature of the election of grace, of which the apostle says, 'A remnant are saved according to the election of grace.' [Rom. 11.5.] - Augustine, A Treatise on Predestination, Chap 7
To: HarleyD
I think that he was referring to his Manichaean phase of nine years duration and the works that he wrote then, not his Catholic works.
Augustine encountered Manichaean teaching soon after the impact of the Hortensius, and remained an adherent for nine years. In the Confessions he is concerned with the effect of Manichaeism on his own relationship with God.
All Catholics that I know understand that that all grace comes from God and that without His saving grace, we cannot have everlasting life. The Church has always taught that we cannot earn our way into Heaven.
All men here means all men period.
10,258
posted on
11/01/2007 1:12:02 PM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: HarleyD
The Anabaptist religion began in 1525 in Switzerland. The original Anabaptists held to three beliefs that set them apart: Believer’s Baptism, Pacifism and Community of Goods.
1- Believer’s Baptism The Anabaptists held that a person must first believe the gospel before he could be accepted into the Church with the sign of water baptism. This is in accordance with the teachings of their Lord Jesus who placed believing ahead of baptism (Mt 28:19 and Mk 16:16).
2- Pacifism The Anabaptists held that one could not obtain or protect his rights by the use of force. This is in accordance with the teachings of their Lord Jesus who commanded his followers not to resist an evil man (Mt 5:39 and Mt 18:36).
3- Community of Goods The Anabaptists held that one could not have private property but must share all his goods in common with Christ’s brothers and sisters. This is in accordance with the teachings of their Lord Jesus who said that no one could be his followers unless they gave up all of their possessions (Luke 14:33, also Mt 6:19-34, Mt 19:21, Luke 12:33, John 13:34-35, Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-5:11).
However, today most Anabaptists do not hold to item 3 above, community of goods, but it was part of the original Anabaptists belief.
“Anabaptists”, are many groups who adopted many of the beliefs of Zwingli, but later would fight him, and adopt many of the Calvin’s theories.
These Christians rejected infant baptism, choosing instead believer’s baptism.. Since many of them had been baptized in their infancy, they chose to be rebaptized as believing adults. So their enemies called them anabaptists — “re-baptizers.”
ANABAPTISTS, (after Zwingli), 1519.
- Brethren in Christ, German Switzerland.
- Hutterine Brethren.
- Mennonites, to Pennsylvania, in 1653.
- German Baptists, Dunkards, to USA, 1723.
- German Moravians, who became the “United Brethren Church”, in 1735.
- Separatists and Congregationalists, in England and Holland, came to America as the Pilgrim fathers on the “Mayflower” (repudiated the title of Anabaptists, as they did the “Baptists”).
- The Amish, to Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa.
- The Baptists in USA (repudiated the title Anabaptists).
The history is a little spotty before 1525.
10,259
posted on
11/01/2007 1:24:49 PM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
To: HarleyD
:::Personally, I like to think of myself as more Orthodox Presbyterian with a few scruples.:::
ROTFL.
10,260
posted on
11/01/2007 1:35:50 PM PDT
by
MarkBsnr
(V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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