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I understand your perspective. I've tried to stick to the point: secret rites prohibit discussion of comparative religious topics. If that's unavoidable in LDS then so be it.

I have, I think figured our why, you think rites = Doctrine so if one is secret, the other is too, in this case at least that's just not so.

Can you help me out with this part of our discussion?

I'll try.

What exactly are we talking about that is a secret rite? You said baptism, Eucharist, etc are not secret, so what is it exactly we are talking about here?

Baptism for the Dead, The endowment and sealings for all time and eternity.

Is the secret part in the Ordinances and Covenants? These seem to be spelled out in the manual - are they basically the same only with different presentation and wording?

The Sacred part is in the Ordinance, and the things they teach (non-doctrinal things that are just rites) (does it really matter to you which side of the isle we walk down during our ceremonies, or if we high five or low five when we meet a "Brother"?)

Or, alternatively, is the secret part found here: {snip}

Nope, Mormons are pretty open about our views about the diefication of man, that's in the D&C, and the book of Abraham, like I said.

You say: all this is in the D&C and the book of Abraham, so go and read them if you want to know what we do in the temple.

... but preface it with:

We covenant with God not to reveal the sacred things he teaches us there outside the temple..

Which, I hope you can imagine confuses me quite a bit.

Why? There are things taught in the temple that are non doctrinal, that are not available outside, the way the doctrine is taught in the temple is not to spoken outside, however, all the doctrines are in the D&C and the book of Abraham, so if someone wants to discuss it, we can go there and talk about the doctrines. I personally went through the temple for the first time and went What's the big deal? I learned all this already just from the scriptures.

So pardon me, what's confusing?

So, if you could clarify for me what exactly the nature of the secret rite is.

So if I could just break my vows please? No, sorry, won't do that, or is that what you were asking?

By this I mean what's it called, is it like a church service for members only?

There is a personal part (I mean individual) called washing and anointing, then there is an Endowment which is an instructional part, with covenants with God to keep his commandments. There is also a Sealing to bind families together through the eternities

Is it a regular rite?

Define a regular rite.

Who presides?

A temple worker called from a local congregation, he is called "The Officiator"

Is it a group meeting.

A Baptisms, yes, in a line getting baptized for a list of names
B Washings and annointings, no individual
C Endowment yes group meeting
D Sealings Live yes family and friends can be invited if they have temple recommends For the dead usually just those participating

Is what must be kept secret comprised of special teachings by a church leader or a ritual that is repeated? Is this a one time initiation, learning or an ongoing thing.

You guys seem to have a problem with the word sacred, secret is not the right word and that may be where some of the misunderstanding is coming from, what goes on in the temple is sacred, not just secret.

It's the same teachings every time.

We are encouraged in the strongest terms to return to the temple on the behalf of the dead to repeat the ceremony, it helps us to refresh it, and the dead need to have it performed for them by a mortal.

I know LDS gets quite a lot of quarrelsome attacks and so are rightfully impatient with replies; but, I’m trying to avoid this and have an informative discussion.

There’s two points I think we disagree, I’ll try once more to make my point:

Rites are significant religious practices often, if not always, filled with symbols and symbolism. They mean something. Something more than “which side of the isle” you referred to. So, if the rites are kept secret, religious meaning is kept unknown from inquiry by non-members. The only alternative I can see is if the symbology does not have meaning.

I understand your point that these rites conform to published doctrine, however, that is not possible to know, examine or subject to interpretation from the outside.

The second point is secret vs. sacred. These are two different words with two different meanings. Something can be both, either or neither. What I’m focusing on is what is kept secret. You could conflate the two, but that would be a new definition of sacred. And would mean everything published by the LDS and every ritural, baptism, confirmation, etc., that is open to non-members is therefore not sacred. So I think how you delineate the two concepts is problematic.

Thanks for your elaboration on these rites. And, no, I wasn’t asking you to violate your vows, I was trying to find information in ways that you could answer without doing so.

You said you didn’t learn anything new in your Endowment. And described it as “an instructional part, with covenants with God to keep his commandments”. If I’m correct in restating this, then why is it kept secret? Alternatively, if all the instruction and covenants are published in other forms, how is it still, according to your definition, “sacred.”

I am guessing that there is part of the instructional part that is not publicly known?

If not, then I think what you are saying is that the rite is an acting out of the doctrine. A play if you will. And I don’t mean this disrepctfully, merely as descriptive. And, if so, you are saying the costumes, scripts and stage directions are what are the sacred part that must be kept secret.

Anyway, I don’t think we’re going to agree here. I believe what is taught by a religion should not be kept from inquiry. “Pearls before swine” I think is insulting to serious inquirers. Certainly not all non-LDS are swine.

I do understand your belief that God commands you not repeat or describe certain parts of your religion. And I’ll repeat that this inevitably limits full discussion.

I also appreciate and have experienced cruel attacks from those who will find fault no matter what. Our religious beliefs are sacred to us all. Some cannot discuss without becoming combative, some cannot discuss without seeing every question as combative. Some can find ways to discuss and disagree passionately without being discourteous or disrespective.

I appreciate you patience and reply...