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THE AMAZING GIFT OF THE PRIESTHOOD
Catholic Dossier ^ | 1998 | Father Kenneth Baker, S.J.

Posted on 06/16/2007 8:06:31 PM PDT by markomalley

THE AMAZING GIFT OF THE PRIESTHOOD

by Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J.

Dr. McInerny asked me to write an essay on the priesthood for this special issue of Dossier. After reflecting on the matter for a few days, it occurred to me that I have written many columns in the Homiletic & Pastoral Review on this topic. Going back over the index I found more than a dozen short editorials that are very much to the point. I have selected five of them and decided to present them to you in this issue. These short reflections offer a good summary of my views on the priesthood and cover a period of about fifteen years.

Why Are Catholic Priests Called “Priests”?

For many years I have been intrigued by the different titles given to their clergy by the various religious bodies. Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and perhaps a few others, give the title of “priest” to their clergy. Most Protestants refer to their clergy as “Minister” or “Reverend” or “Pastor” or simply “Mr.” The basic reason for the difference in titles is the difference in theology.

By definition a priest is one who offers sacrifice. The Catholic Church teaches that the Mass is a sacrifice; it is, in a mystical sense, a re-presentation of the identical sacrifice that Jesus made of himself on the altar of the Cross on Calvary almost 2000 years ago. So because the Catholic priest, in celebrating the Eucharist (= Mass, Liturgy) acts in the person of Christ, and in a mysterious way offers once again the unique sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, he is called a “priest.” The Latin word for this is sacerdos (sacra + dans), i.e., one who gives or brings holy things to the People of God.

Jesus Christ is our eternal priest according to the order of Melchisedek. As St. Thomas Aquinas says, the proper task of the priest consists in being a mediator between God and men (S. Th. III, 22, 1). And St. Paul instructs us in 1 Tim. 2:5 that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men. Because Jesus is both God and man by reason of the Hypostatic Union, he is able to reconcile God and man in his own Person. That is what he did by his death on the Cross.

The Catholic faith teaches that the priest is another Christ, an alter Christus; he takes on this sublime dignity by receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The most essential function of the sacerdotal or priestly office is sacrifice. For we read in Hebrews 8:3, “Every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices.”

It is for this reason, therefore, that the Catholic Church (and others also) calls its clergy “priests.” Most Protestants avoid the title because they do not believe that what they call “the Lord’s Supper” is a sacrifice.


In the broadest sense, a sacrifice is the surrender of one good for something else that is better. Thus athletes make many personal sacrifices in order to excel. In the liturgical sense, a sacrifice is an external religious act in which some sensible gift is offered to God by an ordained servant of God in recognition of his absolute majesty and in atonement for sins. Theologians identify four elements here: 1) a visible sacrificial gift, 2) a sacrificing priest, 3) the purpose of the sacrifice (e.g., glorifying God), and 4) an act of sacrifice which removes the gift from man’s dominion to God’s, and represents the interior sacrificial disposition.

The four elements are verified in Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross. In that unique case, however, the victim and the priest are the same. At Mass in a mystical way the priest re-presents that same sacrifice to the Father, for he says “This is my body....”

I offer this very brief summary of the Church’s teaching on sacrifice, Calvary and the Mass because so many, many Catholics, poorly instructed, simply do not understand what is going on when they attend the Sunday Liturgy. That may also explain why they do not understand the difference between “priest” and “minister.” The Catholic priest is also a minister, but he is first and foremost a priest because he has been empowered by Christ to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for the salvation of all.

The Faith of the Priest

There are some strange things being done in the administration of the Sacraments, and especially in offering Mass. A subscriber who put her eight children through her parish school eventually came to the conclusion that she could no longer attend Mass in her own parish because she doubted the validity of the Masses being offered there.

A Mass can be invalid for a number of reasons (we presuppose that the priest has been validly ordained): 1) because of a defect in the matter, for example, using sweet rolls instead of bread made only from wheat flour and water; 2) because of a defect in the form, for example, changing the words “This is my body” or “This is the cup of my blood” into something else; 3) because the priest positively excludes the intention to do what the Church does in offering Mass.


Donatism was a heresy in the 4th and 5th centuries, especially in North Africa, which caused great harm to the Church. The Donatists believed that the validity of the Sacraments depends on the sanctity or worthiness of the minister; if he was in the state of mortal sin for any reason, then all Sacraments administered by him, including Baptism, were said to be invalid. This opinion was condemned by various Popes and Synods, and it was vigorously opposed by St. Augustine. The Donatists were in error because the principal agent in the Sacraments is Christ himself who operates through the priest as the instrumental cause; by reason of his ordination the priest has the “priestly character” indelibly imprinted on his soul, like the character imprinted by Baptism. By the will of God Christ works through the validly ordained priest, even if he is a sinner. If that were not so, then the faithful would never know for sure whether or not they had really received a Sacrament.

Most Catholics seem to know that mortal sin on the soul of the priest does not render the Sacraments he administers invalid. But it may come as a surprise to many Catholics that the validity of the Sacraments, let us say the Mass, also does not depend essentially on the faith of the priest who offers the Mass. Thus, Masses offered by heretical priests, by schismatics, by Catholic priests who are plagued by doubts or who have false ideas about the Real Presence or transubstantiation, can be and probably usually are valid Masses. They must of course use the correct words of consecration, use wheat bread and wine made from grapes, and have the intention of doing what the Church does in offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Latin: intentio faciendi quod facit ecclesia). The priest does not have to agree with what the Church does, or understand it perfectly, or have it explicitly in mind while he is offering Mass. If in some general or vague way he intends to do what the Church does in the Mass (and in the other Sacraments also), then the Mass is certainly valid.

The Church’s teaching on the validity of the Sacraments is very important today, since there is so much confusion among Catholics about Catholic doctrine, coming mainly from faulty catechetics, distortions in the media, and the errors of dissenting theologians. Our people should know that, just because a priest preaches heresy from the pulpit or ad libs at Mass (provided that he uses the correct form of consecration and valid matter), it does not necessarily mean that the Mass is invalid. It would be invalid if he did not have the intention of doing what the Church does, that is, if he positively excluded that. Such a supposition should not be made if he basically follows the rites of the Church. If, however, he should ridicule the Mass and use invalid matter, or make up his own formula of consecration, that would be a clear sign that the Mass is invalid.

Priests are weak human instruments of Christ. Let us thank him and marvel at his wisdom that he did not make his Sacraments wholly dependent on the holiness and faith of his ministers.

Priests, Prayer and Preaching

One of the main tasks of the priest is preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is ordained not only to administer the Sacraments, but also to proclaim the Good News of Salvation.


Training for the priesthood normally includes four years of college, often with a major in philosophy, although there has been a decline recently and regrettably in the study of philosophy. This is followed by four years’ study of theology, which includes dogma, moral theology, canon law, liturgy, history of the Church, Homiletics, Fathers of the Church, and so forth. When a candidate has successfully completed this course he is recommended to the bishop for ordination and finally ordained a priest of Jesus Christ “according to the line of Melchisedek.”

Everything that the priest is— his personal experiences, his studies, the books he has read— literally everything goes into his preaching. The more he knows and the better prepared he is, the better a preacher he will make. And his preaching is extremely important, especially now that there is so much emphasis on the liturgy of the Word. The point I want to make here is that the key to effective preaching is the personal prayer of the priest. Of course, he must be well trained in theology, he must study Holy Scripture, he must know the rudiments of public speaking, and he must diligently prepare each homily as if it were the only one he would ever give. These are the necessary presuppositions in the preacher of the Gospel. But one essential element is still lacking. That is prayer.

We must not forget that the priest enters the pulpit not to give expression to his own opinions on this or that, but to speak the Word of God. God uses him as an instrument to bring his saving Word to sinners and saints alike.

Preaching well is difficult. It takes a lot of work—and a lot of prayer. The preacher may not dispense with study and preparation, but if he leaves it there and does not go to the Lord in prayer for help and inspiration his words will not make much of an impression on his listeners. By personal prayer and intimate conversation with the Lord the priest comes to a relish and understanding of the Faith that cannot be acquired from books and summer institutes.

The Church, in her wisdom, is very concerned that her priests be men of prayer. During their seminary days priests are taught to spend a period each day in mental prayer; they make annual retreats; they are urged to pray the rosary daily and they are introduced to the Liturgy of the Hours. According to the new Code of Canon Law, priests have a duty to strive for holiness.

“Clerics have a special obligation to seek holiness in their lives, because they are consecrated to God by a new title through the reception of orders, and are stewards of the mysteries of God in the service of His people” (c. 276, #1).


This spiritual program is directly related to the priest’s preaching. It is difficult to preach the Good News convincingly. To preach in a way that touches the hearers’ hearts, the priest must be thoroughly convinced himself of the truth and urgency of what he is saying. In other words, he must have something important to say and he must say it with conviction and enthusiasm. Where will he get that? Primarily from prayer.

The praying priest will be a good preacher. He might not be a Winston Churchill or a Ronald Reagan or a Fr. George Rutler, but he will touch the hearts of the faithful. St. John Vianney, the famous Cure of Ars, was no Demosthenes or Bourdalou but, in his humble sincerity, he was still a powerful preacher. His sanctity gave a power to his words that cannot be substituted for by study and rhetorical skill.

Agent of Christ

One day as I was walking up the side aisle of St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York a woman stopped me and said, “Thank you for being a priest.” Then she walked on without another word. That brief encounter made a deep impression on me. It brought home to me vividly how important the priesthood is to the Church and the world. In fact, without the priesthood there would be no Church.

Ordinary Catholic laymen become priests through the laying on of the hands of the bishop and receiving the Sacrament of Holy Orders. One becomes a priest through the power of Jesus Christ operating through the normal channels of his Church. Orders produce an ontological or real change in the one ordained. Once consecrated he is no longer a lay person and he is no longer exactly like non-priests. He has received a charism that consecrates him to continuing Christ’s prophetic and sacramental ministry.

Jesus is a priest by nature; he was born a priest and he died a priest. For, from the first moment of his conception he offered himself to the Father as a propitiation for our sins and he is our only Mediator with the Father (1 Tim. 2:5). When he instituted orders at the Last Supper he provided that the work of his Incarnation should be continued in history by his apostles and their successors—the bishops and priests installed by them to carry on his mission. So the priest is configured to Christ in a unique way to proclaim the word and to administer the Sacraments, not for his own profit and glory, but for the good of the whole flock of Christ.


The priest of Jesus Christ makes Him, in a certain way, visible and tangible in this passing world. Through the sacramental words of consecration and forgiveness, which only he can utter efficaciously, the grace of Jesus is planted in time and space in a tangible way. St. Paul says he is an ambassador for Christ; in his preaching he is his messenger; in providing for the people Gospel and Sacrament he is also an agent of Christ.

Even if a priest is unworthy of his calling, his sacramental acts are valid and communicate grace; this occurs, not because of him, but in spite of him and in virtue of the grace of Christ in the Church.

The holy priest is one who has identified himself with Christ according to the measure of the grace granted to him. The Church expects her priests to be holy. To be effective, to be convincing, to be agents of conversion, the priest must integrate his priesthood with his personal life. This is not just a counsel; it is a duty that flows from the nature of the priesthood of Jesus Christ. So even if the priest is not a vowed religious, he must still follow the evangelical counsels in the way proper to diocesan priests. We see a striking example of this in the life of the Cure of Ars who is now the patron of priests.

Priesthood is not just a 9 to 5 job; it is not just a function that some men perform for the good of the Church. It is a total way of life. Since he is commissioned to continue the salvific work of Jesus in word and sacrament, the sacrifice of his sexual love in celibacy is not just a practical arrangement. His renunciation of wife and children is basically a clear sign to the world that God has planted in him something that transcends all earthly values, namely, his own divine life as the life of the new and eternal kingdom. The woman who greeted me in St. Patrick’s Cathedral was probably not thinking along these lines, but it was implied in the reverent gratitude she showed for the precious gift I carry with me wherever I go—the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

The Amazing Gift of the Priesthood

As year is added to year, it is my guess that most priests become more deeply aware of the unfathomable treasure they posses in the amazing grace of the priesthood. Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with—both in his official ministry and in his personal life.


We priests all know this, through our study of theology, in a theoretical or abstract way. By prayer, service, sacrifice and perseverance in spite of all obstacles we gradually come to savor it more profoundly in our inner consciousness as we grow older. No doubt, the whole process is guided by the outpouring of divine grace—especially the grace that comes to us through our intimate association with God’s Word and his Seven Sacraments.

Because of his close association with Jesus Christ, with his Word and his Sacraments, there should be no such thing as an “identity crisis” for the Catholic priest. Recently while reading an article on this subject by Fr. Cormac P. Burke, an Irish priest now working in Rome, I came across the following: “A priest then should not only be convinced of his priestly usefulness, he should be convinced it is unique—because our Lord has made it unique. He should not only be aware of his identity, he should be proud of it, and indeed amazed at it. For his real identity is nothing less in fact than amazing” (emphasis added).

The celibate Catholic priest is a visible witness to the transcendence of God, to the fact that Catholics really believe in personal survival after death and eternal reward or punishment. He is a witness to transcendence both in what he is and what he does. Writing about the priest, some years ago Cardinal Joseph Hoeffner of Cologne, Germany, said that our people “want a servant of Christ who is a witness and dispenser of a life other than that of this earth.” “The priest in the modern world,” he added, “is an extraordinary challenge because he does not announce himself but our Lord Jesus Christ, judge and savior of humanity.”

The priest is an alter Christus, another Christ. Msgr. Josemaria Escriva put it this way: “What is the identity of the priest? It is the identity of Christ himself.” The priest is “set apart,” not to be distant, but to be totally dedicated to the Lord’s work (Vat. II, Decrees on Priests, #3). Msgr. Escriva also wisely said that the priest is not more a Christian than the layperson, but he is more a priest.

In the same vein, Pope John Paul II summarized the meaning of the priesthood in his 1979 Holy Thursday Letter to Priests: “In practical terms, the only priest who will always prove necessary to people is the priest who is conscious of the full meaning of his priesthood: the priest who believes profoundly, who professes his faith with courage, who prays fervently, who teaches with deep conviction, who serves, who puts into practice in his own life the program of the beatitudes, who knows how to love disinterestedly, who is close to everyone, and especially to those who are most in need” (#7).

Priests who strive to live their priesthood in that way will never have an identity crisis, but they will be continually amazed at their gift of the priesthood.


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To: markomalley
The Catholic priest is also a minister, but he is first and foremost a priest because he has been empowered by Christ to offer the sacrifice of the Mass for the salvation of all.

Chapter and verse, please???

21 posted on 06/17/2007 4:42:55 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: markomalley
Thank you for this very informative and well written summation of Catholic priesthood.

Being neither a Church historian nor clergy, I can only offer my own insights and difficulties with the office of priest, derived from reading of scripture.

You mention that 1Ti states that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men. This is emphasized in Matthew 27:51 where the curtain of the temple is torn in two at Christ's death. His sacrifice there has removed the barrier between man and the Holy of Holies. Through Christ's sacrifice, we can each come before a Holy and rightious God, bringing Him our prayers and spiritual sacrifices. We have 'confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus' (Hebrews 10:19)

Writing to the church in Rome, the apostle Paul urges his brothers to offer their bodies as living sacrifices (Ro 12:1). In Hebrews 10, we are clearly told that traditional sacrifices are no longer needed for propriation of sin.... by one sacrifice God has forever done it.

In your article, to support sacrifices by the priesthood, you mention Hebrews 8:3, “Every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices.” Yet the context of this is not the priesthood, but the High Priest, and culminates in the point that the High Priestly sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Christ has done it once and for all through His one perfect sacrifice. To say that the Catholic priesthood is 'another Christ' and say that we require their sacrifice would seem to go against what the word of God clearly tells us. He (Christ) has appeared once for all to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself (He9:26). We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body od Jesus Christ once for all (He 10:10).

1Peter 3:12 tells us that the eyes of the Lord are on the rightious and his ears are attentive to their prayer. This rightiousness is derived not from our actions, or our earthly ordination, but solely from Jesus Christ who is our rightiousness (1 Cor 1:30). There is no need for a mediator other than Christ.

My critique of the Catholic priesthood (and of many other Christian groups) is that they place mediators between God and man...as you yourself put it; "the proper task of the priest consists in being a mediator between God and men (S. Th. III, 22, 1). And St. Paul instructs us in 1 Tim. 2:5 that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and men."

If Christ is the one eternally existing mediator, we do not need any other.

Every follower of Christ is called to be be a priest, bringing spiritual sacrifices before God through Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:5), and each of us is called to sacerdos... to bring the things of God before men. Jesus makes this explicit in the 'Great Commission' (Mt 28:29).

Absolutely, the office of priest is an important one. It is one that we each need to recognise when we come before God and accept His Son as our Lord and Saviour. By accepting Christ, we commit ourselves not to a life as observer in the pews, but a life of service to Him.
22 posted on 06/17/2007 6:39:07 AM PDT by DragoonEnNoir
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To: DragoonEnNoir; markomalley

One thing frequently overlooked in discussing this is that the priest is not acting as a mediator in addition to Christ, but is acting in persona christi, that is, in the person of Christ. The Mass that is offered every day is not an additional sacrifice, it is THE Sacrifice, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice of Calvary at all times throughout history. We are at Calvary, we are standing at the foot of the Cross, and the priest is both victim and priest, in that same Sacrifice, not a different or additional one. It is the sacrificial event that was the culmination of all sacrifices under the Old Law and extends throughout all history thereafter, still happening every day on our altars.

The changes to the Mass after Vatican II unfortunately clouded this aspect of Catholic Eucharistic theology somewhat, but this stunning fact of the One Sacrifice is actually what the Church believes about the priest and his role. There is only one Mediator: that is Our Lord, Jesus Christ. And the priest is acting as an alter Christus at that moment, not as an addition or supplement to Our Lord.

Ordination is considered in the Catholic Church to effect an ontological change, which is what makes this possible for the priest; he is not merely the designated person for performing a certain role in a commemorative act, but is empowered through the Holy Spirit acting through the Church to participate, in persona Christi, in the one sacrifice of Calvary that is still being enacted among us to this day.


23 posted on 06/17/2007 7:12:39 AM PDT by livius
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To: Uncle Chip
"And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God." Mathhew 22:29

"He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

24 posted on 06/17/2007 7:34:50 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: doc1019
I pray directly to Jesus,

So do Catholics. We also recognize and utilize the manifestation of God's grace through and with the Communion of Saints.

25 posted on 06/17/2007 7:36:29 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
"And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God." Mathhew 22:29

"He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

Thank You --- by all means let's add your verses to our scripture reading this Sunday morning ["For many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many" Mt 24:5], after contemplating this little gem from the article:

"The Catholic faith teaches that the priest is another Christ, an alter Christus.

26 posted on 06/17/2007 7:55:54 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: DragoonEnNoir
they place mediators between God and man

Do you believe in the Trinity? Is Jesus God? Is there any distinction between praying to Jesus, or the Paraclete, and God. In accordance with Scripture Catholics utilize intercessors who are a manifestation of God's grace.

"Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34

"Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us." Hebrews 7:25

"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:" 1 Timothy 2:1

"And said to them: If it please your soul that I should bury my dead, hear me, and intercede for me to Ephron the son of Seor." Genesis 23:8

"Always in all my prayers making supplication for you all, with joy;" Philippians 1:4

Main Entry: in·ter·ces·sion
Pronunciation: "in-t&r-'se-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin intercession-, intercessio, from intercedere
1 : the act of interceding
2 : prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another

Main Entry: sup·pli·cate
Pronunciation: 's&-pl&-"kAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin supplicatus, past participle of supplicare, from supplic-, supplex supplicant -- more at SUPPLE
intransitive verb : to make a humble entreaty; especially : to pray to God
transitive verb
1 : to ask humbly and earnestly of
2 : to ask for earnestly and humbly
synonym see BEG
- sup·pli·ca·tion /"s&-pl&-'kA-sh&n/ noun

27 posted on 06/17/2007 7:58:31 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: buccaneer81

My divorced BIL receives/received Communion. He eventually got an annulment and married again. He never stopped practicing his faith within the Catholic Church. And his first wife gave him custody of their children. He was at such peace and so happy in his new life, she felt he “deserved” them. LOL - Whatever her intentions, his life was complete then.


28 posted on 06/17/2007 8:04:46 AM PDT by tioga (Fred Thompson for President.)
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To: Uncle Chip
Is it your claim that Catholic Priests who are the manifestation of Christ's unending Priesthood "deceive many"?

Christianus alter Christus

Are you familiar with Acts 8 and Philip's intercourse with the eunuch? If not you should be.

29 posted on 06/17/2007 8:18:18 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Is it your claim that Catholic Priests who are the manifestation of Christ's unending Priesthood "deceive many"?

The Catholic hierarchy that claims that their priests are the manifestation of Christ are deceiving Catholics.

30 posted on 06/17/2007 8:28:16 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: livius
One thing frequently overlooked in discussing this is that the priest is not acting as a mediator in addition to Christ, but is acting in persona christi, that is, in the person of Christ.

Here a Christ there a Christ everywhere a christ, christ. There is NO provision for priests in the new church. The priest was a type of Christ and He became both priest and sacrifice.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

THE Sacrifice, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice of Calvary at all times throughout history.

Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There is no provision in scripture for an ongoing sacrifice

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

31 posted on 06/17/2007 8:32:45 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: Uncle Chip
"And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me." Galatians 2:20

"According to my expectation and hope; that in nothing I shall be confounded, but with all confidence, as always, so now also shall Christ be magnified in my body, wither it be by life, or by death. For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21

'I answer that, As stated above (78, 1,4), such is the dignity of this sacrament that it is performed only as in the person of Christ. Now whoever performs any act in another's stead, must do so by the power bestowed by such a one. But as the power of receiving this sacrament is conceded by Christ to the baptized person, so likewise the power of consecrating this sacrament on Christ's behalf is bestowed upon the priest at his ordination: for thereby he is put upon a level with them to whom the Lord said (Luke 22:19): "Do this for a commemoration of Me." Therefore, it must be said that it belongs to priests to accomplish this sacrament.' St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica

32 posted on 06/17/2007 9:00:45 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Uncle Chip

You are sadly mistaken and display a monumental ignorance of both Scripture and the history of Christiandom.


33 posted on 06/17/2007 9:02:53 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
"And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me." Galatians 2:20 "According to my expectation and hope; that in nothing I shall be confounded, but with all confidence, as always, so now also shall Christ be magnified in my body, wither it be by life, or by death. For to me, to live is Christ; and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21

Where does Paul say that he was Christ or even another Christ ?

34 posted on 06/17/2007 9:10:48 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
You are sadly mistaken and display a monumental ignorance of both Scripture and the history of Christiandom.

Oh really!!! How about this gem from your Catholic Catechism:

#795 "Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. ... Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ."

Well--Well--Well ---- according to your Catholic Catechism, every Catholic is Christ and should therefore be qualified to say Mass and offer those unbloody mystical sacrifices, not just your priests, right??? There should be rejoicing in Catholicdom --- no more shortage of Christs, err priests, that is.

35 posted on 06/17/2007 9:25:43 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; A.A. Cunningham
Context, context, context.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.230

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233

Just as the Bible was never meant to have single verses plucked for prooftexting, nor was the Catechism. The section that contains this paragraph speaks of the relation of Christ and the Church, and specifically the position of the Church as part of the Mystical Body of Christ.

The section in its entirety can be found here.

Incidentially, the quote you mention was given by St. Augustine, darling of Evangelicals, other Protestants, and even several of the reformers themselves.

36 posted on 06/17/2007 9:39:04 AM PDT by GCC Catholic (Pray for your priests and seminarians...)
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To: ears_to_hear; livius
It is important to look at Mt. 24 in context.

15: "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16: then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17: let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18: and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. 19: And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! 20: Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21: For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22: And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23: Then if any one says to you, `Lo, here is the Christ!' or `There he is!' do not believe it. 24: For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25: Lo, I have told you beforehand. 26: So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27: For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 28: Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; 30: then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; 31: and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (RSV)

The rest of Chapter 24 is available here. From a plain reading, we see that these passages refer to the destruction of the temple and the Second Coming of Christ.

37 posted on 06/17/2007 9:54:26 AM PDT by GCC Catholic (Pray for your priests and seminarians...)
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To: ears_to_hear

My whole point is that there are no “new Christs” or secondary Christs or anything like that. The priest, through his ordination, becomes a participant, in persona Christi, in that one sacrifice, which is that same sacrifice still offered in the Mass. He does not become a separate Christ, just as the Mass is not a separate, smaller, if you will, emulation of Calvary.

Part of your misunderstanding is based on the fact that Protestants see ordination as a functional thing, that is, the person ordained is actually just commissioned by the community to perform a particular function, whether preaching or presiding over the symbolic gesture of a Protestant communion service, etc.

The concept of the priesthood and ordination in Catholicism is entirely different.


38 posted on 06/17/2007 10:03:29 AM PDT by livius
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To: GCC Catholic

So if men call themselves christ we should believer Him? It is fine with God?

The fact is that since the resurrection of Christ we have lived in “the last days”

Your churches teaching is an abomination before God IMHO

The destruction of the 2nd temple by God destroyed the “priesthood” forever.


39 posted on 06/17/2007 10:03:56 AM PDT by ears_to_hear
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To: livius; DragoonEnNoir
One thing I find fascinating in studying the Divine Liturgy (be it the Mass or one of the Eastern liturgies) is the eternal nature of the sacrifice (τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου -- Rev 13:8c -- the lamb that was sacrificed from the foundation of the world (kosmos - age))

Appreciating the timelessness of God is essential in understanding, correctly, what happens with the sacrifice of the Mass. Ref Pet 3:8 (μία ἡμέρα παρὰ κυρίῳ ὡς χίλια ἔτη καὶ χίλια ἔτη ὡς ἡμέρα μία -- one day is with the Lord like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day).

Without the understanding of the two ideas, above, it is impossible to truly understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

The pre-figuring of the sacrifice offered by Melchisedec, the offering of Isaac by Abraham, the passover, even the offering of Abel take on new meaning when the concepts in those verses are understood.

Hebrews 9 becomes, rather than a mystery, clear for all (whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit) to see. Without an understanding of the eternal sacrifice, the eternal offering of the Lamb of God, many verses in that chapter remain a mystery or are misinterpreted. For example,

For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. (Heb 9:24)...οὐ γὰρ εἰς χειροποίητα εἰσῆλθεν ἅγια Χριστός ἀντίτυπα τῶν ἀληθινῶν ἀλλ' εἰς αὐτὸν τὸν οὐρανόν νῦν ἐμφανισθῆναι τῷ προσώπῳ τοῦ θεοῦ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν

In your statement, The changes to the Mass after Vatican II unfortunately clouded this aspect of Catholic Eucharistic theology somewhat, but this stunning fact of the One Sacrifice is actually what the Church believes about the priest and his role, is all too true. In the traditional ad Orientem orientation, the sacrificial nature of the Mass is far clearer, while in the versus populum orientation, the memorial and passover meal nature of the Mass is emphasized.

But there is one thing, Livius, that I would take issue with in your post. You said, the non-bloody repetition of the same sacrifice, in what I believe to be a misstatement on your part (please advise if I'm mistaken). It is, in fact, a re-presentation. And if we look at Rev 13:8, we, in fact, can see that the ongoing sacrifice from the foundation of the world is brought, by the power of the Holy Spirit, down from Heaven onto the altar. As we can see from the old mass far clearer, then, the priest, acting in persona Christi, offers the body of Christ, made present in the appearance of bread and wine, to the Father. As shown in Rev 5:6 and in Rev 13:8 (as quoted above), this is no new sacrifice. It is an opportunity that God, in his manifest goodness, has provided to his creation, to take part in the continual sacrifice and offering that is ongoing, even now, in Heaven.

40 posted on 06/17/2007 10:08:55 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus CINO-RINO GRAZIE NO)
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