Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[Frank Sheed]

Interesting blog from a Catholic Convert on the Rosary! This is Part One of Four! She is also interested in historical rosaries and has some nice examples on her blog.

[Frank Sheed]

Tridentine Ping List. Hopefully, this will be of interest!

[Frank Sheed]

Parts One through Four are linked from here.

http://paternosters.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestants-iv-can-protestants-hail.html

[Frank Sheed]

protestants and the rosary, conclusion

There are three basic prayers in the Rosary: the Our Father ("Our Father, who art in heaven..."), the Gloria ("Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit...") and the Hail Mary.

The first two are not controversial: in fact, many Protestants say them quite routinely, especially in weekly church services.

Even for Protestants who might otherwise be comfortable with the repetitive and meditative aspects of the rosary, however, the "Hail Mary" may still give them pause. I've already outlined some of the reasons why. Here's what the prayer says:

AVE MARIA, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

"HAIL, MARY, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."



One of the classic Catholic stories of Protestants "discovering" the rosary shows the Protestant suddenly realizing that the first words of the "Hail Mary" prayer come straight out of the Gospel of Luke. "Aha!" crows the Catholic, "See? It's right out of the Bible!"

Well, sort of. :)

Certainly it's partly true that this comes out of Scripture. "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee... blessed art thou among women" is the angel Gabriel's salutation to Mary, who has been chosen as the mother of Christ (Luke 1:28).

The second phrase is also a direct quote from the Bible. "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" is the greeting spoken by Mary's cousin Elizabeth when Mary comes to visit her (Luke 1:42).

Protestants, however, point out that the first of these is a greeting spoken by an angel, not a human being. The second is spoken directly to Mary's face by someone she knew on earth. Neither of them is presented as something ordinary believers in later times are supposed to go around repeating -- in contrast, for instance, to the things Christians are directly admonished to do, such as praying after the model of the Our Father, or washing one another's feet.

If the question is whether it's legitimate to use someone else's words to express greetings or praise, of course the answer is yes. But this doesn't answer the question a Protestant would raise: Is there a reason for greeting or praising the Virgin Mary at all? Even Protestants who are comfortable with the idea of asking saints in heaven to pray for us (as we do our friends on earth) might feel this reminds them too strongly of the praise and worship given to God.

There may never be a "Protestant rosary," as such, since as we've seen there are several aspects of the rosary that Protestants may continue to be uncomfortable with.

But I do think there are ways of recognizing Mary's role in salvation history that Protestants and Catholics can agree on, and perhaps pray about. In that sense, and with proper understanding on all sides, perhaps Protestants can find ways to appreciate Mary after all.



I find myself thinking here of the Angelus, a prayer formula that has traditionally been said by devout Catholics at the ringing of a bell at dawn, noon, and sunset (familiar from references like the 19th-century painting "The Angelus" by Jean-François Millet, which shows field workers pausing to pray). While the Angelus grew out of an older custom of saying three Hail Marys at sunset, dawn, and noon, other words were soon added.

In the version I learned, it goes like this:

"The Angel of the Lord appeared unto Mary,
and she was filled with the Holy Spirit.

("Hail, Mary, full of grace..... etc.)

"Behold the Handmaid of the Lord.
Be it done to me according to Thy Word.

("Hail, Mary, full of grace..... etc.)

"And the Word was made flesh
and dwelt among us.

("Hail, Mary, full of grace..... etc.)

"Pour forth, we beseech thee, O Lord, thy Grace into our hearts; that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ, thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by his passion and cross, be brought to the glory of His resurrection, through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."

other posts in this series:

Part I: Protestants and the Rosary
Part II: Worship, honor, and the Virgin Mary
Part III: Addressing saints

Labels: mary, protestants, rosary

posted by Chris at 1:44 PM  

[Religion Moderator]

The caucus designation was removed. The article does not qualify for a caucus because it makes claims about Protestant beliefs.

[Liberal Bob]

Romans 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings.

[Enosh]

"HAIL, MARY, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

The proddie gripe here is twofold.

• "Holy Mary"

  Some may disagree with the Catholic doctrine which holds that Mary was without sin, therefore the "Holy" designation would be inappropriate.

• "pray for us sinners"

  Some disagree with the practice of asking saints, (or angels), for intercession. Only prayer to God is appropriate.

[Suzy Quzy]

#1.....Jeus GAVE us The Our Father Prayer and Elizabeth basically gave us the Hail Mary!

Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by praying the Rosary? Really??? WOW! And we don't pray to Mary or any of the Saints to do anything EXCEPT ask Jesus to help us.......it's like our TEAM rooting for us!

[Suzy Quzy]

If the proddie’s don’;t like it, they don’t have to do it.....we don’t care what they do, just leave us alone.

[Enosh]

"just leave us alone."

The headline is "Protestants and the rosary", don't you think at least one of us is going to speak up?

If you don't like it, you leave us alone.

[Enosh]

By the way, I have many times thought of becoming a Catholic, my beliefs match yours 99% anyway.

But it’s this one big issue - praying to someone who isn’t God... I just can’t do it.

God Bless, sister.

[NYer]

But it’s this one big issue - praying to someone who isn’t God... I just can’t do it.

Neither can we :-)

We don't 'pray' to Mary or the 'saints'; we ask them to intercede on our behalf. Oh sure, we also go to the Top and ask our Lord but we know from history (the Wedding Feast of Cana) that our Lord listens to His mother.

I have many times thought of becoming a Catholic

Then you will appreciate this story from someone who, in a million years, NEVER thought of becoming a Catholic, much less a christian. But God acts in extraordinary ways.

ROY SCHOEMAN

[AnAmericanMother]

The Rosary isn't praying - it's a request for intercession on the part of the Queen Mother.

That's made plain at the end of the Rosary, when you finish by saying, "Let us pray. O God, who by the life, death and resurrection of thine only Son, our saviour, Jesus Christ, hath gained for us the fruits of everlasting life; grant that we, by meditating on the mysteries of the Holy Rosary, may imitate what they contain, and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord, Amen."

You're not praying to Mary when you say the Rosary - the Hail Mary is a request for her help. And each 10 beads you are supposed to be meditating on an event in the life of Christ -- if you look up the 20 Mysteries (there are 4 sets of 5) you will see that all but 2 are incidents from the Life of Christ (other than the Assumption and Coronation of the Virgin at the very end -- which can be seen as the ultimate reward of a holy life.) The Our Father, the Glory Be, and the Fatima Prayer (after every 10 beads) are all directed to God - The Our Father to God the Father, the Fatima Prayer to Christ, and the Glory Be to the Trinity.

You're not praying to Mary any more than you're praying to your Sunday School classmates when you ask them to pray for you. "Pray for us sinners . . . "

[Frank Sheed]

By the way, I have many times thought of becoming a Catholic, my beliefs match yours 99% anyway.

But it’s this one big issue - praying to someone who isn’t God... I just can’t do it.

The thread was not posted to "disrespect" anyone. The blogger who posts this site is a former Protestant and I used the Catholic Caucus designation which was lifted by the Religious Mod.

I am a cradle Catholic and so I cannot say HOW you feel. That would be presumptuous of me. I also know that many of my Protestant brethern (including some who have eventually converted and become Catholic), admit that this is something they have the "greatest" trouble and soul-searching with (the Hahns are examples, I believe).

As for me, I cannot remember a time when my mother and my aunts did not say the rosary and often more than one in a day.

The blog has four links that go over various aspects of the rosary. It is interesting that this woman, who did not like the rosary, not only says it now but has an incredible curiosity in its history!

I am fond of saying that we should Witness to our beliefs, but that the Holy Spirit takes things from there. I wish you would consider joining us, especially if this is one of the few things holding you back. I can tell you that my sister attended a funeral of an elderly man, and the family who was not Catholic asked her to say the Rosary. She led those who wished to say the Rosary for the repose of this man's soul. Afterwards, several Baptists had a number of questions about the Rosary since they had just seen the "Passion of the Christ" and noted that the Hail Mary is taken largely from Luke.

I wish you the Lord's peace! May God bless you for your courage to speak out so respectfully.

In Christ Jesus,
Frank

[ichabod1]

Additionally, if you don’t want to pray to Mary or any of the other Saints, DON’T DO IT. There is no such requirement, many of us don’t, but it is allowable. Oh, and if we do we still close with “through Jesus Christ Our Lord.”

[Enosh]

'an elderly monk came out to speak with me. He approached and shyly asked, "Tell us, if you don't mind — We couldn't help noticing that you do not receive communion, so you must not be Catholic. What then are you?" When I replied "Jewish", he grinned and with a deep sigh said "That's a relief! We were afraid you were Protestant!"'

LOL! Great story, thanks for the link.

[NYer]

It's a truly remarkable story and so is his book ...

SALVATION IS FROM THE JEWS

[Enosh]

Thanks. Old dog - new tricks, you know. I’ve got so much practice with this “Fire Breathing Wacko Fundamentalist” gig...

... Hmmm... I suppose thumping the Bible with rosary beads would be okay too... ;)

[Between the Lines]

Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by praying the Rosary? Really???

I find you post amusing. Did you read the article? It is about Catholics convincing Protestants to pray the Rosary.

Here is a more appropriate response to this thread:

Get over it people....we don't bother about your prayers. Are we HURTING you by not praying the Rosary? Really??? WOW! And we don't pray to Mary or any of the Saints to do anything EXCEPT ask Jesus to help us.......it's like our TEAM rooting for us!