Posted on 05/16/2007 1:51:59 PM PDT by Friar Roderic Mary
Look up the word "redeem" and "redeemer" and tell me how is she a co-redeemer of our sins? She has a specific role in our redemption, and she is given the highest honor among the saints. But she is still a saint. All she can do is pray for us.
Good point.
How about if we just solemnly define dogma stating that the line "Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Savior, save us!" from the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a very good thing to say. :-)
That one line is more "Marian-ly co-redemptive" than anything in the Roman liturgy for sure, and maybe moreso than anything in Latin-Rite Catholicism taken as a whole.
I have to say, your #58 is very convincing.
This is quite true but not, I think, in dispute. Being not a point of argument, the cost of elevating a theological observation to the status of dogma -- one that can be easily misunderstood, at that -- seems unacceptably high.
The role of all saints has ever been to orient us to Jesus: our Lady is most highly honored among the saints because by both quality and quantity she excels all others in this respect. The point of the Chaldedonian definition is to advance our understanding of Who Jesus is. How would the definition of Mary as co-redemptrix accomplish this?
That is fully patristic and in line what Andrew Byler said in his ecellent post 58. That Orthodox prayer does not in any way confuse or suggest that she is a co-Redemptrix.
Just wanted to add that I agree with you Andrew to the point that God does not need us. That would be silly to say that he needs us for anything. But He does apparently want us or He never would have created us. And if He wanted us enough to create us then who are we to say that He does not want us to participate in His Salvific actions. Even the Protestants who are so big on God-alone seem to go through great efforts in passing out bibles and preaching from it. Does God need Bibles or preachers? Certainly not. He did not use any for Paul on the road to Damascus. If you follow this logic to the final conclusion then we should do absolutely nothing. But if you say we should do something (as you seem to be saying by continuing to write in this blog) then you must agree that it is a matter of drawing the line somewhere as to what things we should do and what things God should do.
Fr. Maximilian points out that according to the Bible, God DOES want us to participate in His salvific plan. If you say God does not want us to participate then the burden of proof as to why we should redraw these lines is now on you.
Ave Maria!
I’ve noticed that several sources, and you yourself have called him “Fr. Maximilian.” Wouldn’t it be more proper to call him St. Maximilian?
Only because people do not understand what they are saying when they pray "Salve Regina" due to the translation of "Salve" as "Hail" and the various halftruths spread about concerning what "Hail" means in English.
Hail comes from the German/Norse "Heil" which means salvation, and salvation come from "salvere" in Latin, of which Salve is the imperative.
We are both referring to to third person pinged above, who is styling himself Fr. Maximilian.
We are not referring to the Saint.
St. Paul already had some faith though, being a faithful Jew, and he learned this from books and preachers through the habit of faith instilled at Circumcision. God gave Him the revelation of Jesus as the Christ on the road to Damascus.
"Faith comes by hearing." The ordinary channel of salvation is from preaching and the sacraments, which are human actions. So God does need us in the ordinary economy of things. But God is not bound by the ordinary economy of salvation.
Ah, my error. :-)
This would be true only from the most extreme God-alone mentality. Remember we are not saying she is equal to God but that she participate in the work of God as we all do when we strive to help save souls. The only question then is how much can we participate?
Ave Maria!
The word redeem means something:
redeem from merriam webster: 1 a : to buy back : REPURCHASE b : to get or win back
from the bible: Ephesians 1:7 in HIM we have redemption through HIS blood.
Mary didn’t redeem anything. She didn’t die on the cross. She did not shed her blood. She is not part of the God-head.
Anyone who says otherwise is out of step with historic Christianity and is seriously flirting with heresy.
It is, from the perspective of the Bible, fundamentally an alien religion.
Where in the world do they come up with this crap???!
I think we all know that. That's not what this discussion is about.
You really don't know what you're talking about. Have you read any of the books written on the subject by Catholic theologians?
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