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To: nmh
"This is one of the many problems with Catholicism. Doctrine constantly evolves. One pope teaches hell is a “state of mind”. Another pope states hell is a “real place”. It all depends on who the latest “infallible”person"

Doctrine does not "evolve" at all. In fact Vatican Council I declared quite specifically that doctrines cannot evolve or change under the pretense of a "deeper understanding". You simply don't know the Catholic Church or what the word "doctrine" means. The ONLY doctrine regarding Hell is that there is one, that it is a place where the damned go, it is a place of suffering, and it is not Heaven. What it specifically looks like, who exactly is there, or what its literal location is have nothing to do whatsoever with the doctrine of Hell. Those questions are merely theological discussion points that are of no real consequence regarding the doctrine that Hell exists.

Just to remind you of what "infallible" means in the Catholic Church, regarding the Pope, (or to inform you for the first time if you're a non-Catholic): The Pope's infallibility is strictly limited to matters of "faith and morals". In other words, it is limited to those doctrines which are necessary to the salvation of Christians. When any Pope talks about science, or what he thinks Hell might "look like", or even if he is speaking about Church discipline, (general rules of dress, codes of conduct, etc), he is not speaking about doctrine and hence speaks as a private doctor. And as a private doctor he is as fallible as any other man on earth.

The Church believes that the Popes are protected only from doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit, and nothing else, so that the Church can never lead innocent souls astray. What the various Popes have actually declared from a point of infallibility is so small that one has to look them up to find them. For a Pope to speak from an infallible standpoint he:

(1). Must be speaking strictly about faith or morals, (essential Christian beliefs).

(2). He must be addressing the entire Church, every single Catholic

(3). He must use words that clearly show he is speaking 'ex cathedra', (from the throne), such as: "We hereby declare that for all time, into pereptuity"..... and, "We say, teach, declare and define"....

The actual times which Popes have made these infallible pronouncements have been fairly rare.

7 posted on 04/03/2007 7:35:05 AM PDT by peekingfromabox
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To: peekingfromabox
The actual times which Popes have made these infallible pronouncements have been fairly rare.

Just an additional note: Church teachings can be considered infallible without the Pope speaking "ex cathedra", based on Tradition. e.g., the male-only priesthood has not been declared ex-cathedra, but the teaching is infallible as it is accepted and taught by the full communion of bishops as an incontrovertible truth that Jesus' ministry makes clear the Church does not have the right to ordain women to the priesthood.

11 posted on 04/03/2007 7:54:43 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: peekingfromabox; nmh; Alex Murphy; Dominick; mj anderson
The ONLY doctrine regarding Hell is that there is one, that it is a place where the damned go, it is a place of suffering, and it is not Heaven. What it specifically looks like, who exactly is there, or what its literal location is have nothing to do whatsoever with the doctrine of Hell.

That really isn't correct. The Catechism states clearly:

"This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'" (Paragraph 1033)

You need to think through the logical consequences of what you are saying. Hell is a place only in the sense that bodies, being physical matter, must exist in some place (of course, this will not occur with the damned until the general resurrection at the end of time).

Hell is not a "place" however, in the sense of being some "where" that can be freely visited and left. Not only does such an idea make absolutely no sense, but it is quite anti-Biblical. When Lazarus and the Rich Man both die (St. luke 16.19-31), they are together in the same place and can see each other and converse, even though as Abraham says "between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither" (verse 26). In the Apocalypse of St. John it is revealed quite clearly that sinners "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb" (Apocalypse 14.10). The sinners are right there in the presence of God and the blessed, but they are in torment, and the blessed are in bliss. Making God the creator of a place called Hell also makes God into a monster, since He would be the Creator of a physical "place" of indescribible torture and suffering. And most certainly, the devil did not create hell, because he is not the Creator, much as he might want us to believe otherwise. Our salvation from damnation would be God saving us from His own monstrosity, rather than Him saving us from our sins. But to say such a thing is, I think, blasphemy! We need to seek the source of the torments of hell within us.

Christ tells us that hell is the "fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (St. Matthew 25.41). What hell actually is, is the state of an unredeemed sinner (and the devil and his angels are sinners too) existing in the presence of the Holiness and Love of God. After all, God is present in Hell too "if I descend into hell, thou art present." (Psalm 138(139).8) While God loves the sinner, the sinner hates God, hates himself, and hates all mankind. He wishes he never existed. When he dies he goes to hell, because he has seperated himself from the Source of life, and through his death and being brought into the presence of the Lord, he sees for all eternity precisely what he has thrown away through his love of self and hatred of God. That is "the worm [that] dieth not." (St. Mark 9.47). The burning fire is the presence of God Himself "for our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12.29) This fire warms and enlightens the saints (Apocalypse 22.5), and it burns the sinners. The seperation from God is the sinner's eternal refusal of communion with Him - the eternal cry of "non serviam".

The topographical language of the Church, which affirms "after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell" (Catechism 1035) is intended not so much as to place hell in the center of the earth (although the physical bodies of the damned may very well end up there), but to use the image of the firey center of the earth as the firey furnace of hell, and the location of center of the earth as the furtherest point from God who is "up" above the empyrean heavens, so as to emphasize the vast distance of seperation the sinner is making from God by his life - he is placing himself at the point "furthest" from God.

15 posted on 04/04/2007 7:45:22 AM PDT by Andrew Byler
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