Posted on 02/06/2007 3:43:00 PM PST by stfassisi
You seem to have a lot of your own opinions.
Do you believe in Transubstantiation-that the Eucharist is truly the Body , Blood ,Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ?
You would of course, be excluding the 40 million which this democracy has offed in the last 30 years or so.
Do they count?
Or do we get a pass because it's done in the name of personal liberty and freedom of "choice"?
OK, let's allow the readers to decide, shall we? Firstly, it shoul be remarked that the letter of Pius IX to Jefferson Davis was written in response to a letter from Davis to the Pope and was not unsolicited. Here is the letter.
"ILLUSTRIOUS AND HONORABLE PRESIDENT, salutation: We have just received with all suitable welcome the persons sent by you to place in our hands your letter, dated 23d of September last. Not slight was the pleasure we experienced when we learned, from those persons and the letter, with what feelings of joy and gratitude you were animated, illustrious and honorable President, as soon as you were informed of our letters to our venerable brother John, Archbishop of New York, and John, Archbishop of New Orleans, dated the 18th of October of last year, and in which we have with all our strength excited and exhorted those venerable brothers that, in their episcopal piety and solicitude, they should endeavor, with the most ardent zeal, and in our name, to bring about the end of the fatal civil war which has broken out in those countries, in order that the American people may obtain peace and concord, and dwell charitably together. It is particularly agreeable to us to see that you, illustrious and honorable President, and your people, are animated with the same desires of peace and tranquility which we have in our letters inculcated upon our venerable brothers. May it please God at the same time to make the other peoples of America and their rulers, reflecting seriously how terrible is civil war, and what calamities it engenders, listen to the inspirations of a calmer spirit, and adopt resolutely the part of peace. As for us, we shall not cease to offer up the most fervent prayers to God Almighty, that He may pour out upon all the people of America the spirit of peace and charity, and that He will stop the great evils which afflict them. We, at the same time, beseech the God of pity to shed abroad upon you the light of His grace, and attach you to us by a perfect friendship.
" Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, the 3d of December, 1863, of our Pontificate 18.
(Signed) ".Plus IX."
To construe this as "support" for the South is a real stretch, in my opinion. However, to go further and cite this as support for an argument that the Church condoned slavery is a complete whiff. An airball. Utterly ridiculous.
Why do you traditionalists ALWAYS question the commitment of anyone who happens to disagree with your position on any peripheral issue that relates to Catholicism??
Since I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, to answer your question, YES. But as a recent convert, I'm also not blind to the historical warts of Roman Catholicism.
And in specific, the question I'm particularly interested in is WHY Latin America turned out as a pit of despotism, while "non-Latin" America (US and Canada) retained representative goverment. In both cases, European culture mixed with aboriginal American culture. The MAJOR difference that I see is the CULTURAL impact of Catholicism vs the CULTURAL impact of Protestantism.
And the reason I'm interested is that I want to see the US STAY a representative democratic government, and not import the bad aspects of Latin America, as seems to be happening with the flood of illegal immigration.
I'm talking about a long-term historical trend--not recent history. But to rebut your point---with the current flavors of authoritarian governments, you get BOTH. "Do they count?
Of course they do. "Or do we get a pass because it's done in the name of personal liberty and freedom of "choice"?"
See point above about authoritarian governments.
The link I provided gave a lot more than just this letter, including the context in which the actions of the Holy See were taken at the time. Specifically, that the Pope favored the Southern position IN SPITE OF slavery. And the link also gave the reasons WHY that was the case.
ON THE CHRISTIAN CONSTITUTION OF STATES
IMMORTALE DEI
Encyclical by Pope Leo XIII
36. This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church concerning the constitution and government of the State. By the words and decrees just cited, if judged dispassionately, no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anything contrary to Catholic doctrine, and all of them are capable, if wisely and justly managed, to insure the welfare of the State. ....Therefore, when it is said that the Church is hostile to modern political regimes and that she repudiates the discoveries of modern research, the charge is a ridiculous and groundless calumny
How many innocent lives have been murdered within the womb in Western Democracies alone?
But, you are right. BTW,didn't the Pope make Jefferson Davies a Crown of Thorns?
"Seems to lie a hint of implied recognition...Pius IX concluded the letter with a subtle hint....What the pope meant by “perfect friendship” is unknown...Pius IX’s correspondence with Jefferson Davis implies...so the Pope easily could have considered the South ...one could argue that Pope Pius IX believed...
*That is "proof?"
*Of course, what is risible and ironic is this non-proof polemic is published in the schismatic rag, The Remnant, whose publisher signed a "We Resist You to the face" manifesto written against the authority of Pope John Paul II
IOW, The Remnant promotes fantasies as "proof" the Pope supported the South back during the Civil War while today it PROMOTES actual OPPOSITION to the Pope.
I 'spose reading that rag as a source for factual information makes sense to some but I don't get it
It used to be in a museum in New Orleans. At least until Katrina. One of those odd things.
Your source is dated. Re-read the latest publications on the Church's social doctrines, and you will see several condemnatory comments, particularly regarding various types of socialism.
A lot fewer than under the various socialist/communist governments. And under those, it takes a lot more than a simple majority vote to change things.
Lots of other sources have the same info and interpretation.
"I" first learned about the Pope's support of the South from Henry W. Crocker's book "Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church: A 2,000-Year History".
Crocker is a convert to Catholicism, and a "real" historian and publisher.
I simply picked the first on-line reference I found that matched (and actually expanded), the info in Crocker's book.
Crocker's book is excellent, BTW.
Ok, thanks, brother. I did not know that. I ought to buy Crocker's book. The guy writing for the Remnant was just speculating and he couched everything in ...hints..and maybes and one could argues...
HIGHLY recommended. Crocker is NOT "politically correct" on any subject. One could even say that on some subjects he's perhaps overly blunt. But then, I like that kind of writing.
Not me. I favor the understated approach
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