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The most ancient liturgies illustrate the custom in such prayers as the following: “Let us pray for our brothers who have fallen asleep in Christ, that the God of the highest charity towards men, who has summoned the soul of the deceased, may forgive him all his sin and, rendered well-disposed and friendly towards him, may call him to the assembly of the living” (Apostolic Constitutions, 8:41).

Equally ancient are the inscriptions found in the catacombs, which provide numerous examples of how the faithful offered prayers for their departed relatives and friends. Thus we read from engravings going back to the second century such invocations as “Would that God might refresh your spirit….Ursula, may you be received by Christ….Victoria, may your spirit be at rest in good….Kalemir, may God grant peace to your spirit and that of your sister, Hildare…Timothy, may the eternal life be yours in Christ.”

Writers before Augustine explicitly teach that souls stained with temporal punishment due to sins are purified after death. St. Cyprian (died 258) taught that penitents who die before the Sacrament of Penance must perform the remainder of any atonement required in the other world, while martyrdom counts as full satisfaction (Epistola 55,20). St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) described the sacred rites of the Liturgy with the comment, “Then we pray also for the dead, our holy fathers, believing that this will be a great help for the souls of those for whom the prayer is offered” (Catechesis, 32).


1 posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:53 AM PST by stfassisi
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To: sandyeggo; Salvation; Pyro7480; jo kus; bornacatholic; Campion; NYer; Diva; RobbyS; narses

This will be fun and interesting.-;)


2 posted on 01/29/2007 6:48:20 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; american colleen; Desdemona; ...

Catholic ping!


3 posted on 01/29/2007 6:49:09 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: stfassisi

Hmmm it's tough to say which has less scriptural/historical support: the idea that folks will just disappear into heaven in some sort of pre-second-coming rapture, or that folks get to 'work off' sins in some sort of inter-life-death-waiting-room.


5 posted on 01/29/2007 6:53:29 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: stfassisi

The difference between Purgatory and Hell is a medieval misunderstanding of Christians.

Jesus referred to "Gehenna", which is the Greek for "Genhinnom". Yes, it is a physical place outside of Jerusalem, a nasty place, but it was given that name because it was an earthly vision of the spiritual Genhinnom of Judaism.

Jesus wasn't making a new doctrine here. He didn't DEFINE Gehenna because he was speaking to JEWS, and JEWS all knew (and, if they have studied their religion, know) what Genhinnom is). Jesus didn't MODIFY anything about the Jewish view of Genhinnom. He simply referred to it, implying that the Jewish view was correct and didn't need to be modified.

So, what IS Genhinnom? Genhinnom - Gehenna in the Greek translation - is Hell, as opposed to Gan Eden, which is Paradise. When the body dies, according to the Jews then and now, the soul departs and goes to judgment before the fair and perfect judge: God Almighty. The soul is judged in the balance, between the good deeds that one has done - the mitzvot - including adherence to The Law - and the evil one has done. If the good deeds far outweigh the bad, and there is nothing horriffic on the bad side, the truly good soul goes straight to Gan Eden: heaven. Everybody else goes to Hell: Genhinnom. But this is the key. Every soul cast into Genhinnon does not STAY there. Genhinnom is a place of purification and pain - where the fire never ceases and the worm never sleeps. And there, those whose balance of good and evil was more even, or those who had a dastardly act in their past but were otherwise good, etc., are purified: THEN they go to Gan Eden. The truly wicked and depraved, whose souls had such a lopsided toll of evil and who did little to no good, stay in Genhinnom forever.

So, you see, Gehenna - Jewish Hell - is both Hell AND Purgatory. The impure but salvageable soul is harrowed through Hell, and purified in the flame, and THEN goes to Heaven.

That's what the Jews believe, and believed. That's what the people Jesus was talking to believed. And that's what Jesus SAID, too, by using the term "Gehenna", just like that, unadorned, unmodified, uncorrected. When Jesus corrected tradition, he always said 'Scripture says, but I tell you...'. When he refers to a tradition and DOESN'T modify it or correct it, and just incorporates it into his speech, he is telling the Jews hearing it that (A) their tradition is essentially correct and (B) given that, because you don't want to go to Hell (even if you get purified in the end, you don't want to get boiled in oil in the first place), do right and follow the teachings and commandments now.

Jesus' sermon is very Jewish. And if we listen to it as a Jew of the First Century (as opposed to a Catholic monastic of the Middle Ages who knows nothing about Judaism other than popular legends filled with blood libel, and the glimpses of it in the New Testament), we discover that Jesus has laid out the directions of the afterlife, and that the Jews have it right: Heaven for the pure, Hell for everyone else, with Hell serving a purifying function for some before they go on to Heaven, while the wicked stay in Hell forever. That's what Jesus SAID by invoking Gehenna and not modifying it.

If Catholics understood the Jewish Jesus better, they would understand that Purgatory IS Hell, and Hell IS Purgatory. The only distinction is that for those souls to be purified there, Hell ENDS at some point and they leave for Heaven, thus making Hell a Purgatory. But for the wicked, there is no purgation. It's just hell and flames and torment forever, without end.

How to avoid that end? Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit is the biggie Jesus warned about. Every other sin can be pardoned, eventually, according to Jesus. And given that Jesus was God Incarnate, he ought to know.

There really should not be a debate about Hell and Purgatory.
Those who say there IS NO PURGATORY because it's not in the Bible are wrong. It IS in the Bible, from Jesus' lips no less: Gehenna.
Those who say there IS NO HELL are wrong. It IS in the Bible, from Jesus' lips no less: Gehenna.
Those who say that Hell and Purgatory are DIFFERENT PLACES are mistaken. They misunderstand the Jewish meaning of Gehenna. Gehenna is Hell, and Hell is Purgatory, for those who are sent there to be purged. For the damned, there's no purgation and they just stay there. Jesus said that too, by speaking of Gehenna over and over, and not correcting the Jewish belief in the slightest. Wherever the Jewish tradition about which Jesus was speaking was wrong, in error, departed from the will of the Father, Jesus said so. But when it DIDN'T - when Jesus just used the words and texts and asserted them to teach - then Jesus put his own imprimatur on them.

Hell and Purgatory are both Genhinnom - Gehenna - Jesus used the term as a Jew does, uncorrected. Which means that the Jews are right in their understanding of the structure of the afterlife and judgement.

Which means that yes, there IS a Purgatory, and yes, it IS in the Bible. So, the Catholics aren't WRONG, exactly. Where they err is in imagining them to be separate places, and then building up theological traditions based on that difference. There is no difference. Jesus said so, if you understand him, a Jew, as a Jew understands him.

Purgatory is interesting, because it's a doctrine that the Catholics/Orthodox actually have mostly RIGHT, based on the BIBLE ITSELF, but the Protestants miss out on completely because they don't have the Jewish understanding of the texts. Catholicism/Orthodoxy started out as Judaism, so that memory of the meaning was there, and was passed on. But it became strained as the link with Judaism was broken and there was only the text to fall back on. Christians TODAY can run over to their Jewish neighbors' synagogues and ask "So, what's this Gehenna business", and have the eye-opening experience of realizing that Jesus is referring to BOTH Hell AND Purgatory in the same single word. But medieval Christians, especially theologians, didn't talk to Jews about theology, and indeed, despised them.

So, there's the real answer.

I suspect it will satisfy nobody, because Protestants have their TRADITION of bashing Catholics about Purgatory, and Catholics have their TRADITION of the power of the keys, and teaching authority of the Church.

The real solution is that Jesus taught Purgatory, and Hell, and they're the same place: Gehenna. That's the truth. Let him who is able, hear it.


7 posted on 01/29/2007 8:48:03 AM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: stfassisi
God created man that he might possess his Creator forever in the beatific vision. Those who die in the state of enmity toward God are deprived of this happiness. Between these extremes are people who are neither estranged from God nor wholly dedicated to Him when they die. What will be their lot after death?

Mumbo jumbo, mumbo jumbo.

9 posted on 01/29/2007 8:51:39 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Acts 17:11 also known as sola scriptura.)
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To: stfassisi

Hmm,

I counted a total of three (3) Scriptural references in the entire dissertation. None of which has anything to do with purgatory.

The silence of Scripture screams loudly the full message that anyone need to know.

This purgatory doctrine is drivel, created for the sole purpose to control people and frighten them from their funds.


10 posted on 01/29/2007 8:52:39 AM PST by pjr12345
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To: stfassisi
The Doctrine of Purgatory

Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.

(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory

Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?

Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?

Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)

Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory

The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory

Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

18 posted on 01/29/2007 9:09:25 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: stfassisi
its final acceptance by the Protestant churches would mean a reversal of four hundred years of divergence

And pride would never let that happen.

46 posted on 01/29/2007 10:44:03 AM PST by al_c
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To: stfassisi

The Historical Doctrine of Purgatory

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1).

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works. The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32. Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied the doctrine of the final purification. Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine. (1) A purification after death exists. (2) It involves some kind of pain. (3) The purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God.

The Acts of Paul and Thecla

And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: “Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).



The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

That very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).



Tertullian

That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25–26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).



Cyprian

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).



Lactantius

But also, when God will judge the just, it is likewise in fire that he will try them. At that time, they whose sins are uppermost, either because of their gravity or their number, will be drawn together by the fire and will be burned. Those, however, who have been imbued with full justice and maturity of virtue, will not feel that fire; for they have something of God in them which will repel and turn back the strength of the flame (Divine Institutes 7:21:6 [A.D. 307]).



Cyril

Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holyand most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).



Gregory of Nyssa

If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).



John Chrysostom

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).



Augustine

There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the body and blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead (ibid., 172:2).

Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).


168 posted on 01/29/2007 1:21:25 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: stfassisi; 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; ...


207 posted on 01/29/2007 2:13:37 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, insects)
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To: SirKit

Ping!


817 posted on 02/02/2007 6:03:11 PM PST by SuziQ
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