Posted on 11/22/2006 6:44:22 PM PST by ELS
You have been added.
At a wedding there is usually a bride and a groom. They are referred to as bride and groom before they get married. After the wedding they are usually referred to as husband and wife.
Actually, his interpretation is in agreement with the dictionary.
I know what a Bride is (and isn't)...
Apparently not. I refer you to dictionary.com :
I don't disagree with that but because we do that in this day and age, doesn't mean Paul the Apostle went along with that concept...Besides, many a Bride never make it to the altar to become the wife...
I don't dispute at all that the church will become the Bride of Christ...God says so...But it has not happened yet...
So by making your church the Bride of Christ NOW, which the pope erroneously does, much scripture has to be destroyed and perverted to make it happen...You even have to claim that much of the scripture is 'spiritual' as opposed to literal...
There are 3 chapters in the book of Revelation identifying a world-wide religion that God will destroy...By your church making the unbiblical claim that it is now the Bride of Christ, it attempts to nullify those chapters that identify the 'false' church...
Your church claims it has been the bride for about 2000 years...That's NOT about to get married...
About to get married is when you're in the church with the exit doors locked and you're starting the walk down the aisle...
And as the bible goes, the wedding will take place in heaven...When we get to heaven, in preparation for the wedding, THEN we can be called the Bride...
Again, I didn't interpret anything...
What are your credentials?
Simple...I believe what I read in the Bible...
The reference in 2 Corinthians is to the particular church in Corinth, which St. Paul fears is not ready for the nuptuals. This does not negate the typology of the Chruch as the Bride of Christ, but rather reinforces it.
Pure conjecture...The very same deficiency was ocurring in the church at Galatia...
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
This does not negate the typology of the Chruch as the Bride of Christ, but rather reinforces it.
The 'church' is not a type of the Bride of Christ...The 'church' (individual believers, parts of the Body of Christ) IS the Bride of Christ, but NOT until later...
Paul knew the wedding wouldn't take place for 2000 years...Neither your Church, nor any Church will be the Bride of Christ, regardless of what the pope says...
The 'church' is individual believers in and outside of Churches thru-out the world that make up the Body of Christ...
The reference in 2 Corinthians is to the particular church in Corinth, which St. Paul fears is not ready for the nuptuals.
So you agree that at that time, the church at Corinth had not been to the Wedding...As I understand it, your church claims to be the present Bride of Christ...When did the Wedding take place??? When was the church at Corinth wed to Jesus??? Was there more than one Wedding???
The bible says the Wedding doesn't take place until ALL of the Christians are in heaven...
Yes, the Church is the present Bride of Christ, and the Wedding will be the Second coming of Christ.
Iscool: Again, I didn't interpret anything...
ELS: What are your credentials?
Iscool: Simple...I believe what I read in the Bible...
You can play word games if you insist, but that doesn't change the fact that when one reads words those words are processed in by the intellect into a concept or understanding of what was written. Every person is individual and arrives at an individual understanding or interpretation if you will. Just because you don't call it an interpretation doesn't change the truth of the matter.
Now, to get back to the main dispute. You claim that Benedict XVI doesn't understand what Paul said in Ephesians 5:21-33. Here are Benedict's words:
One of Paul's letters goes so far as to present the Church as the bride of Christ (cf. Ephesians 5:21-33). He thus takes up again a prophetic metaphor, which made of the people of Israel the spouse of God of the Covenant (cf. Hosea 2:4.21; Isaiah 54:5-8): He thus expresses to what point the relations are intimate between Christ and his Church, be it because she is the object of the most tender love on the part of her Lord, or because love must be mutual and we, in as much as members of the Church, must show him a passionate fidelity.Just so we are on the same page, here is the passage from Ephesians under discussion:
21 Being subject one to another, in the fear of Christ. 22 Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: 23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. 28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: 30 Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.
If you want your assertion to be taken seriously, you will provide a substantial argument showing how the Pope has "erred." Merely saying that you don't read it the same way he does is not a substantial argument. Nor is referring to a different passage of Scripture that apparently contradicts the passage under discussion. One can find many apparently contradictory passages of Scripture if that is all one is looking for.
Your church claims it has been the bride for about 2000 years...That's NOT about to get married...
What is 2000 years compared to eternity? What is 2000 years to God who is outside of time, who is eternal? 2000 years is but an infinitesimal instant to God. That means that the Catholic Church most certainly can be and IS the bride of Christ.
Both statements are unbiblical...And that's the problem...
No one cares what you guys teach each other out of your Religious Tradition...But then you tell each other that things like the Wedding is the 2nd coming of Christ...
The bible does not say that...In fact, the bible contradicts that...
And why is it important to that your church is not the present Bride of Christ??? Because by making your church the present Bride of Christ, you have 'wrested' the scripture in the bible that fortells of the coming Kingdom...
You are keeping your church members in the dark when it comes to the bible...Just as you kept them in the dark during the Dark Ages... Scripture was ordered to be in Latin only and accessible only to the clergy...
Show us all some scripture where the Wedding will be at the 2nd coming of Christ...
We're not talking rocket science here...
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
How many ways can YOU 'interpret' this verse??? Most of the bible is easy to read and understand...Believing it is the hard part, as many can attest to...
Paul did not present the church as the Bride of Christ in Eph. 5 because in Eph. 5, the church is not YET the Bride of Christ...The church is still a 'Chaste Virgin'...
The entire context of Eph. 5 is Christian conduct...Now that you are saved (without works), wake up out of your dead sleep and submit yourselves to God...Walk in the light...
There are no contradictory passages here...There are no contradictory passages anywhere in the bible...
At Corinth, Paul told the people that the church was espoused...And you can bet he preached the same sermon to Ephesus...
Paul at Ephesus told the church about Christian conduct, conduct for married folks...And you can bet he preaches THAT same message at Corinth and every other church he shows up at...There's no contradiction...
The only contradiction is that your church tries to take scripture out of the bible and make it line up with it's (your church) Tradition...
The Wedding takes place after the Christians are hauled off the earth and taken to heaven...The Marriage Supper of the Lamb then takes place, in heaven...
Jesus then returns with us (the Christians) at the 2nd coming of the Lord...You can read it in the book of Revelation, and I'm sure you have...But like I said, the problem is not in understanding it, but believing it...
And we aren't talking about 2 Co 11:2, either.
Paul did not present the church as the Bride of Christ in Eph. 5 because in Eph. 5, the church is not YET the Bride of Christ...The church is still a 'Chaste Virgin'...
I would hope that every bride is a chaste virgin. The two are definitely not mutually exclusive.
There are no contradictory passages here...There are no contradictory passages anywhere in the bible...
I never said there were. However, you pitted 2 Co 11:2 against Ephesians 5:21-33 as if one contradicted the other.
At Corinth, Paul told the people that the church was espoused
"Espoused" is synonymous with "engaged" and "betrothed" which means that the Church is not yet married to Christ, but is His bride.
Show me that you can intelligently discuss the scripture on the table, and I will pay more attention to your additional requests. Let us start by reviewing your idiotic "The pope has erred" in #5, -- in light of subsequent explanations are you ready to retract that?
Actually, Paul corrected him for setting a bad example, not for having "faulty theology".
Thank you, Pope 'Iscool'.
Is this a binding judgement, or is there appeal from your sovereign decisions, O mighty one?
Sorry, but a 'bride' is a new wife...I don't know of any female who considered herself a 'bride' at the moment she accepted a man's request for marriage...
Short-term memory can be a wonderful thing.
This is pure fabrication. You are desperate to change the subject aren't you?
Explanations like betrothed means wife??? Or explanations that say 2000 years is but a flash in the pan to God, blah, blah, blah....I don't think so...
Show me that you can intelligently discuss the scripture on the table, and I will pay more attention to your additional requests.
Like you are an authority on the scripture??? If you're such an authority on the scripture explain how you can biblically bow down to a graven image...Or explain this verse:
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
So I should throw out the book of Revelation like you do so I can rely on your church to tell me that the church is 'now' the bride of Christ, and then discuss Eph. 5 in THAT context??? That's not the way bible believing Christians work...We let the word of God do the decipherin'...
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