Saint's heart to go on display

NY Daily News ^ | 09/14/06 | NICHOLAS HIRSHON

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Unless you are Catholic or Orthodox, you have no clue what the Bible says. "


That is a very arrogant statement. I'm suprised you would post something like that.

[Iscool]

It'd be nice if you believed all the quotes from the Bible, not just the ones you like. The one I quoted clearly states you are not the sole authority when you "study" your Bible. If you are a Bible believing Christian as you claim you will accept it.

To the contrary...Those verses say NO ONE is to use private interpretation when reading the bible...Including your church...

And when the bible says 'in your flesh is no good thing', how could someone possibly construe that to mean something other than what it says??? That's some plain teaching there...

[annalex]

There are some Protestants who read the Bible thoughfully and I can respect that. My experience with Iscool is that he is a common troll.

While it could be coached more diplomatically for a gentler Freeper, I stand by the statement. Reading the Holy Scripture outside of the guidance of the Church can be harmful to the reader. Just look at Jehovah's Witnesses.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Your both quotes, outside of their proper context and in the sense you quote them, reflect Gnostic beliefs in evilhood of flesh, condemned by the Church a long time ago."



In my reading of the NT, generally speaking, I find that the "flesh" does not refer to the physical human body, but to the fallen nature - all that we are apart from God.

This is not Gnosticism. The Bible nowhere condemns the physical creation as evil per se - even though it is under the curse. What it condemns in the fallen nature. Paul was referring to this when he said "In me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing."

Paul was clear that the unchanged human being can not enter the Kingdom. The human body must be changed before it can be in the presence of God.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Reading the Holy Scripture outside of the guidance of the Church can be harmful to the reader. Just look at Jehovah's Witnesses."

Yes, but conversely look at the underground church in China. It has seen a 100 fold increase in 100 years (900,000 in 1900 to 100,000,000 in 2000). They exhibit a form of selfless, fearless Christianity that puts the majority of Western Christians to shame. A tree is known by its fruit.

Regarding the JW's, Jesus told us there would be cults that would "lead many astray". The existence of cults is inevitable.

[annalex]

Exactly: you are arguing for me. Gnosticism is to say that since flesh and what it connotes in the Scripture is corrupted by sin, a miraculous preservation of the physical flesh is contrary to the divine will.

One can argue from Scripture alone that the Scripture does not positively advise venerating the relics of the saints, or even that it does not advise any form of veneration of the saints. But one cannot argue that miraculous preservation of the flesh is contrary to scripture.

[Iscool]

Paul was clear that the unchanged human being can not enter the Kingdom

I almost hate to do this but I can't seem to help myself...Which Kindgom are you referring to? The Kindgom of God, or the Kingdom of Heaven?

[Iscool]

Reading the Holy Scripture outside of the guidance of the Church can be harmful to the reader.

I feel exactly the same way you do...

Reading the Holy Scripture with the guidance of the Catholic church will definately be harmful to the reader...

I'm not trying to be caustic, or abrasive...I firmly believe that...

[Iscool]

In my reading of the NT, generally speaking, I find that the "flesh" does not refer to the physical human body, but to the fallen nature - all that we are apart from God.

As I see it, the fallen nature includes the flesh...Every reference to the flesh in the OT means, flesh...

[Dajjal]

Bumpus ad summum

[investigateworld]

Comments M. ?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

The Catholic Church does not use private interpretation. Everything taught in the True Faith has been handed down from Christ to the Apostles to their successors either by word or epistle.

Unfortunately, you cannot say the same for your belief system. If it isn't 2000 years old, it's heresy.

And when the bible says 'in your flesh is no good thing', how could someone possibly construe that to mean something other than what it says??? That's some plain teaching there...

You really need to stop. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"The Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of Heaven?"

I believe they are one and the same.

The term "Kingdom of Heaven" is unique to Matthew in the NT. Unless you posit that Matthew had inside information about a certain type of "Kingdom" that Mark, Luke, John, Paul and others didn't, it must be synonymous with "Kingdom of God."

[Conservative til I die]

Just like a stuffed, mounted deer head...

Bomb throwing as usual, eh?

It may come as a surprise to you, but many Christian practices you find macabre or bizarre existed long before you decided to open up your KJV for the first time. Christianity did exist way back before the 21st century.

[Conservative til I die]

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for

So you believe the flesh is evil? The gnostic charge stands then.

[Conservative til I die]

Problem people have is believing it...The verses I posted are pretty doggone simple...

Yet you don't understand them. The Bible has hundreds of thousands of verses. Randomly quoting one or two here or there out of context does not make one a scholar.

[Conservative til I die]

I worship and pray only to Jesus Christ, not to the heart or toe of another human being.

I believe your apology is sincere, but the way that you phrase the above statement goes to the heart of my issue with many Protestants. Aside from the theological falsehood put forth that we "worship...the heart or to of another human being", there's an unconscious condescension and demeaning attitude in how Protestants talk about Catholic beliefs, even when they're trying to be apologetic and friendly.

[Ditter]

My apology was sincere and I have no animosity toward Catholics but my remark was not unconscious. Do Catholics put something between themselves and Jesus Christ when they pray, a saint or a relic of a saint? I have heard Catholics say they pray to a saint because he is closer to God than they are. The Bible tells me that no one is between me and God, so I pray directly to Jesus. I have felt the arms of God and I have been spoken to by God when I prayed to him in the darkest time of my life. I have spoken of that time here on FR. I didn't need a saint of or a relic to reach Him. That is my only point and again I apologize for the way in which I said it in my first post.

[Nihil Obstat]

The word "pray" to catholics means to ask for help. The word "Pray" comes from the old latin word "precari" which means "to ask for help". We can ask for help from anyone. But Adoration and Worship is reserved for God alone. We of course do not worship or adore the saints.

This might help you to understand what we mean. When we pray to the saints, we are asking for them to help us Worship and Adore God. We Worship and Adore God alone, and ask the saints to pray to God with us and join with us in Worshiping and Adoring God.

The first Christians prayed and had their masses in the catacombs, not only for security but more importantly to be with and pray along with the deceased, "Those asleep in Christ".

It's sad that a lot of the schisms and disputes are because of semantics. Thank you for your follow-up post. God bless you.

[fatima]

Hi Ditter,I am glad you felt the Arms of God.God bless,fatima