Posted on 08/21/2006 8:31:24 AM PDT by fishtank
From my catechism days, so it might be dated - As long as you haven't a mortal sin with you when you go, you're in. Time is spent in pergatory for all the venial stuff. But there is only one way to go after pergatory. And that's to heaven.
All these feelings you have come from God, are pleasing to God, and are close to the heart of God. Jesus Christ has the same love, the same desire, the same willingness to "do anything," only 10,000 times more! Nobody could want the salvation of your loved one more than Jesus Christ Himself wants it. And He is powerful, powerful to save. Rescuing sinners is His specialty, and He is brilliant at it. "Savior" is His name!
God knows that, because of love, we want to be able to help each other out. That's what St. Paul's teaching about the Mystical Body of Christ is all about: we are like cells or organs or parts of Christ, and we DO help each other spiritually, all the time.
Go ahead and pray for your relative. I will pray, too. God hears these prayers outside of time and space; there is no "before" and "after" in eternity. Pray for the forgiveness of all of your relative's sins, however small or big they may be, and for his soul to be made beautiful, clean and bright and delightful to God, through Jesus Christ Our Lord.
Don't think of purgatory as a "place" so much, or an an alternative to going to heaven.
Think of it as the transition from imperfection to perfection, it is the putting on of the garments in preperation to entering into the feast.
SD
Many of us will be glad to make it to Purgatory because that would mean that we will get to Heaven eventually.
I think you could find some good information on www.ewtn.com.
God bless you!
I suppose you'd be happier if the Catholic Church didn't believe that deathbed conversions were possible.
But we do. Deal with it.
SD
I think I got a real insight into the idea of Purgatory when I was in training for football. After a long practice session, the coach would make us run the bleachers. If you have never done such a thing, especially in a state of near exhaustion, you may not realize how painful it is. It is pure torture. But we all knew it was needed if we were to attain the fitness required to be excellent. Each week that passed meant that we were a little closer to our goal and each week was a little less torturous than the one before. After awhile we welcomed the workouts that were making us better and better. As we came closer to "perfect" condition we felt joy at the pain because it was transforming us for what was coming. I see Purgatory as a joyful process of making us better and better through the pain of transformation.
Luke 23:43 KJV And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.Unless Jesus was lying to the thief, then this notion of purgatory seems problematic.
...And because this was a matter of great importance, and an instance of amazing grace, that so vile a sinner, one of the chief of sinners, should immediately enter into the kingdom of God, and enjoy uninterrupted, and everlasting communion with him and that it might not be a matter of doubt with him, or others, Christ, who is the "Amen", the faithful witness, and truth itself, prefaces it after this manner: "verily I say unto thee"; it is truth, it may be depended on. This instance of grace stands on record, not to cherish sloth, indolence, security and presumption, but to encourage faith and hope in sensible sinners, in their last moments, and prevent despair. The Papists pretend to know this man's name; they say his name was Disma; and reckon him as a martyr, and have put him in the catalogue of saints, and fixed him on the "twenty fifth" of March.Given that these were among the last words Jesus spoke in His ministry and this thief was the last sinner He evangelized, I trust we can take Him at His word. That so much of the doctrines of grace are confirmed from this single statement by our Savior is a blessed teaching to us and an assurance of our security in Christ. Our Savior will save us as scipture promises and He has paid our full ransom in His own blood, once and for all.
(The story of the penitent thief has sometimes been considered the most surprising, the most suggestive, the most instructive incident in all the Gospel narrative. ... In the salvation of one of the thieves, vital theology finds one of its finest demonstrations.
Sacrementalism was refuted, for the thief was saved without recourse to baptism, the Lord's Supper, church, ceremony, or good works.
The dogma of purgatory was refuted, for this vile sinner was instantly transformed into a saint and made fit for paradise apart from his personal expiation of a single sin.
The teaching of universalism was refuted, for only one was saved of all who might have been saved. Jesus did not say, "Today shall ye be with me in paradise", but "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
The notion of soul-sleep was refuted, for the clear implication of the entire incident is that the redeemed thief would be in conscious fellowship with his Saviour in paradise even while his body disintegrated in some grave.
Too, it is doubtful whether any other gospel incident presents the plan of salvation more clearly or simply.--Dr. Charles R. Erdman)
Our Lord said to the servant of God, Sr. Faustina: "Unceasingly recite this chaplet that I have taught you. Whover will recite it will receive great mercy at the hour of death ... Priests will recommend it to sinners as a last hope of salvation. Even the most hardened sinner, if he recites this chaplet even once, will receive grace from my infinite mercy.
Your retort:
So all that church stuff is unnecessary and this little chaplet is all you need to get to purgatory/heaven?
Sounds like a real shortcut.
The original message on the thread:
Please, I do not want this to turn into a debate thread.
I'll just leave it alone for now. Thanks for playing.
I think at this point many answers have already been given. I wanted to give you my sympathies for your loss. Prayers are with you and your family. God bless!
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism of the Catholic Church - #1030)
http://www.mark-shea.com/purgatory.html
prayers for your relative sent. God bless you.
Sorry for your loss. If it helps though, death is a state of existence involving separation. When our loved ones die, their soul and spirit are separated from this physical body and are one with the Lord.
God gives soul life and only he may remove it. In His perfect omnisience, He knew the perfect time to bring His believer home to Him. One simple way of expressing this is that for the believer, when we die, we are promoted.
The poster, himslef a Calvinist like you, asked not to engage in theological debate. However, what you posted regarding the Good Thief is inaccurate.
First, because Christ told one man that his stay in Purgatgory will be either less than a day long, or nonexistent, does not mean that everyone else's stay in Purgatory will be less than a day long, or nonexistent.
Second, the Good Thief did satisfy the necessary requirement to enter heaven: he repented of his sin, he was baptised by blood through his painful death, he did a good deed of defending an innocent, and he died with his gaze fixed on Christ Himself, thus in sacramental communion with Him. The aftereffect of his sin (of theft, we presume) was purified by his suffering on earth, thus no purgatorial sufferign was necessary in his case.
Lastly, the Church and ordinary sacramental life available through it has not been established yet; that happened at the Pentacost.
I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18)
Can anyone think of a more relevant question? All of us pass through the narrow passageway leading from this life to the next—the passageway we call death. We shall all experience the transition into a new realm, another existence beyond this life and world we know today.
Let us for a moment consider the personal experience we shall have with death. One day our hands will be folded across our lifeless breast and our eyes will be closed as our body takes its last ride to the cemetery. The purple curtains will be drawn. “The black camel of death,” said one, “will kneel for each of us at our door, and we shall have no choice but to mount and ride off into the desert of darkness.” Death is no respecter of persons.
Beyond life… What?
We may only speculate on certain aspects of the future, not knowing much that it holds, but we do know he One who holds the future in His hands. And it is He who has revealed much of that future to us.
He who knows the end from the beginning, the future as well as the past, reveals in His Word that at death the body returns to the earth, while our soul goes to a temporary destination to await final judgment. Each of us determines in this life what our destiny will be; it will depend upon our response to the redemptive plan that God designed for the sinner’s deliverance from eternal doom.
We may ascend to a place of peace in the presence of God, as Paul declared in (2 Corinthians 5:8). It is possible for us to dwell eternally in a place of happiness, bliss, and contentment, knowing that our redemption has been completed, that we have finished our course in faith, and that we are being rewarded. Or we may descend into a place of suffering, there to be detained until the final judgment and then to be sentenced to the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire. (See Matthew 25:46; Luke 16:22-26; Revelation 20:11-15)
Both places are, in a sense, temporary, for we shall wait until our souls are reunited with our bodies in the resurrection. Jesus described the resurrection in (John 5:28-29), and Paul spoke in detail of the first resurrection in (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
The resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the ungodly are separated by one thousand years of peace on earth (Revelation 20:2-7). The just of the present age will be those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb—baptized in His name and filled with His Spirit; the ungodly will be those who have refused to surrender to the terms of the gospel.
For those who are saved, there will be the city not made with hands—the New Jerusalem. This city is described in (Revelation 21) as the eternal home of the redeemed.
Missing in this city will be the evil things that are found in every large earthly city. Gone will be all crime and violence. God’s people will walk golden streets without fear of molestation.
(Revelation 21:18) describes the wall of this city as jasper and the city itself as pure gold. There will be no need for the sun or the moon there, for the Lamb will be the light of the city (Revelation 21:23).
And, wonder of wonders, the redeemed will enjoy the blessings of the city eternally.
The poet exulted:
When we’ve been there ten thousand years, Bright shining as the sun, We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise Than when we’d first begun.
In contradistinction, for unbelievers there is “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” (Revelation 21:8). The only emotions there will be agony and regret, and from that place there will be no escape.
Eternity—never-ending ages! A person’s state there is totally dependent upon the present—what he does during time. His eternal destiny will be decided by whether or not he trusts in the redeeming blood of Christ and avails himself of its merits through faith and obedience.
Let us consider today the nearness of our souls to the rendezvous with death. David solemnly declared, “There is but a step between me and death” (1 Samuel 20:3). Death is a certain step, and yet an uncertain step as to time, place, and manner. It is, further, a solitary step so far as other human beings are concerned. Only Christ can go with us through that dark valley.
Are you ready for that moment and for eternity to follow?
The Bible proclaims how to prepare for eternity and enjoy eternal life with Christ: ”Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38)
In prayer for your relative ... Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him, and may his soul, and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.
Most likely your dad is right now enjoying the splendor of being in the presence of God and smiling that you had it right all along.
Fishtank, sincere sympathy to you in your loss.
Tax-chick, I believe this is the C.S. Lewis section that you're referencing:
Lewis spoke of the need to be stripped of our filthy rags, scrubbed and made gloriously clean before we stand in the presence of God. As Lewis pointed out, we want to be cleaned up:
"Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’?
Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’
‘It may hurt, you know.’
‘Even so, sir.’"
I think that's the passage AAM had in mind. I was thinking of the closing scenes of "The Last Battle."
Remember that scene well. And as Lewis said elsewhere, "there will be surprises." As with Emeth the Calormen.
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