Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu
Now as I convert I never felt that way...
I always think of the mainstream outside of FR as old friends!
When I reading things that done to other church such as the Catholic Church I feel a sinking feeling as though I was a member because to it like an old friend and I wish them well!
Well, the first requirement of us is really to be crucified, so that it's not simply "us" who are living: "I have been crucified with Christ, and it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life that I now live..." (Gal. 2:20).
God doesn't want the filthy spiritual corpse (a body minus Jesus) trying to "do all we can do." He wants us to come to the end of ourselves, so that the faith life we live is "Christ who lives in me." He is the one who energizes & empowers us. He gets the credit. He gets the glory. And it's the only kind of person God intended. Adam was a God-empowered creation who knew & walked w/God.
Now, it's true...once we're reborn spiritually, then whole-hearted commitment is requisite. No argument there. We're to love God w/whole heart, mind, soul, strength!!! Also, Christ said, "be holy" 'cause God is holy (Matt 5:48).
So, we're not arguing about what the standard is. We're in disagreement as to how we meet that standard.
His way is that His people are collectively a temple of His Holy Spirit who operates through them. My primary temple is the flesh & blood body of Christ which is to be a 24/7 worship & service center. Your primary temple is brick & stone in which religious works are occasionally done.
God already knows us perfectly. We can't change His mind about who we are no matter how many religious works we perform. It's not external works that does it. It's Him working in us, inside-out. We both emphasize works. So who does Paul say is doing this work? You or me? Nope:
"...partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he [not you or me] who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:5-6).
He began the work. He finishes it. No author writes only the first chapter and then tells the characters of His book to finish the work. He Himself is the Word. Us? We're merely the book to be read by all ["You show that you are a letter from Christ...written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Cor. 3:3]
Very nice answer, thank you.
The oaths were changed in 1990 so chances are, you never experienced the oaths I'm talking about.
>> "How can you say what you said when your very founder would never even have
>>gotten off the ground had he not tried to shake up the faiths of others and denigrate
>>them?"
I never said that, you are confused.
>>(a) shake up your faith, which you say is despicable; and
No, I said Shake, Shake up is diffrent.
>>(b) no one should denigrate another's faith.
No one should.
>> All I was calling for was consistency.
Fine lets both be consistent I’ll ask my question to you and let’s see if you can answer it (we’ve been doing I the other way for some time now.) I believe I have answered your questions in a consistent answer if you read them literally ands don’t try to interpret my words.
Why is it that those who leave the church can’t leave it alone?
Why is it that those who leave the church can’t leave it alone?
________________________________________________________
You sound like you are on a quest of sorts...good luck.
That's at least the third time you've asked the question. And I believed I answered it in post #496.
Review that, and tell me if it answers it or not, and if not, why not?
>>God the Father is no witness to Joseph Smith's testimony.
I will state here and now I have received such a witness. Complain not the ye have not received such a witness, but go and seek one for your self (Just a philosophical note: Its really dang hard to prove a negative here, “No one will ever receive a witness of X”)
>>There have been no mighty works like those following the ministries of Jesus,
>>Moses, Noah, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, John, Peter, Paul, etc.
Please define “Mighty Work”
>>Moses didn't write about Joseph Smith
Moses was writing about Christ, why would he write about a prophet to come almost 2,000 years later? Moses did not write about you either.
>>And my point is that Joseph Smith needs to held to the same standard as any Biblical prophet.
He wrote Scriptures that have led many to believe in Christ, he prophesied of the future many prophecies have been fulfilled others are still waiting (revelations is still waiting too.)
The definitve test given in the scriptures is that the prophecies of any so-called prophet must come to pass.
So, Revelations is a lie because it has not happened yet? God Forbid.
>>God, Himself, said that if anyone claims to be a prophet, ... and those things
>>that he says don't come to pass, ... do not listen to him ... for he is a false prophet.
By that standard, Joseph Smith is a good prophet to follow.
From the Writings of Confucius “In questioning Diety, any answer is significant” I have born my testimony on this forum before, suffice it to say Joseph Smith is a prophet of God because I have received a witness that I have no doubt came directly from God as to the divinity of the Book of Mormon. I would invite all to read, Study, Ponder and Pray. Hoping to receive a testimony from God. I believe this to be good advice when you want to know if anything is “True” and “From God” those who state they “Know my religion is not true” have yet to prove anything except that they did not receive a witness as I have.
God Bless you all
To restate it then: You can't let J.Smith off the hook for
(a) denigrating the creeds and professors of all historic Christian sects [see post #472];
and (b) attempting to shake the faiths of many by setting loose at large a missionary enterprise meant to loose folks from their faith-based moorings as members of Christian churches
While (c) accusing others of denigrating your faith and attempting to shake it simply by using the same witnessing opportunities & liberties every LDS missionary enjoys & employs.
You can't have it both ways. Consistency states that either you accuse J.Smith of doing same, or that you avoid tagging Christians w/such labels.
>>I took a blood oath in the Temple.
>>I'm just daring you all to come and slash my throat.
>>I told all your dirty little secrets and I'm still alive.
I’m a fairly stable person, but daring people to come and kill you on an open internet forum, it’s just not smart. (Please be safe)
So you are an oath breaker, OK.
So you are daring me to do something you know I will not do, Dare declined.
So you think the temple ceremonies are dirty?
What do you think of the Mason’s ceremonies? Are they dirty? (There are similarities, or so I hear)
And if you remember, the words were about what you would rather have done, not what we will do to you if…
I would not be advertising that I will break a covenant if I were you, I am a man of my word even if I give it to the Devil himself, I will keep it. You seem to find this as a badge of honor, I am embarrassed for you.
When I first kneeled down and asked in a contrit spirit I never really expected an over whelming joy that would surge through my whole being!
As I was going through the lessons I would have loved to have the missionaries come every day I just could not wait to hear more!
If it was not for the prophet Joseph Smith and the restoration I would never have know there was such love and peace!
That was 24 years ago and I still feel the same way today!
By that standard, Joseph Smith is a good prophet to follow.
You can't on the one hand say that Smith is a "good prophet to follow" after he failed the Deuteronomy 18 test above. You can't on the one hand claim that "living prophet" is vital and that D&C reflects some of those prophecies, when D&C 114:1 unveils a false prophecy.
"Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world." (D&C 114:1)
Date of "prophecy": 4/17/1838.
Date of mission mentioned in prophecy: "that he may perform a mission unto me next spring [1839]."
Date of Patten's death: 10/1838.
Bottom line: God knew who would die and who wouldn't. He was not surprised by Patten's death. God doesn't waste his breath by uttering specific names who will not be performing any mission to him...
Thanks for posting, I'll see you around on the board I'm sure.
It does, I'mm chugging through these in order of pingage Ugh!
Unfortunately, I believe you. AND I really don't care what you think or believe about me.
How do you know the mission was to this world? Telling him to settle his business and dispose of his responsibilities in advance was not all that common, it was a kindness from the Lord to warn him to put his affairs in order.
The difference between the interpretations is simple, I know Joseph smith to be a prophet by personal revelation. You believe he was not a prophet. I look at the prophecy and say how was this fulfilled? You look at it and say “how can this be used to prove Josph Smith was not a prophet?
We both will see what we expect to see.
>>God the Father is no witness to Joseph Smith's testimony.
I will state here and now I have received such a witness. Complain not the ye have not received such a witness, but go and seek one for your self (Just a philosophical note: Its really dang hard to prove a negative here, “No one will ever receive a witness of X”)
And so ... your witness (from the Father) was experiential ?
And you could not have been fooled ?
Even as Joseph Smith could not have been fooled ?
The witnesses Jesus called for His ministry were objective. Noone (not even His enemies) could deny that He worked miraculous works of God, ... and that He taught as none had taught before.
>>There have been no mighty works like those following the ministries of Jesus,
>>Moses, Noah, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, John, Peter, Paul, etc.
Please define “Mighty Work”
Healing the sick, raising the dead, stilling the storm, walking on water, calling the fire of God down to consume sacrifice, parting the sea, providing waterfrom a rock, building the ark, etc.
>>Moses didn't write about Joseph Smith
Moses was writing about Christ, why would he write about a prophet to come almost 2,000 years later? Moses did not write about you either.
And I have not proclaimed myself the self-annointed bearer of the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Joseph Smith did this. Biblically, he should have had a more witness ... to substantiate his claim.
>>And my point is that Joseph Smith needs to held to the same standard as any Biblical prophet.
He wrote Scriptures that have led many to believe in Christ, he prophesied of the future many prophecies have been fulfilled others are still waiting (revelations is still waiting too.)
I've seen his (Joseph Smith's) misses.
So what is your regular Freeper name?
Mormon threads always draw "new" Freepers. And they are always, hold your breath, Mormon! Well golly!
I don't for a minute believe you have never posted on FR before.
I was on a thead once where 9 "new" Freepers signed up. All Mormons!
Hey I was on that thread too. I remember it well ; )
Now that you mention it there is a brand new member on this thread too. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1628161/posts?page=113#113
Maybe they're all mormon apologists from FAIR or FARMS coming over to FR to hone their debate skills.
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