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To: annalex; wmfights
FK: "I disagree that the Apostles were equivalent to today's Roman Catholic Church."

Based on what? I gave you the scripture that says that they were sent by Christ; He promised us a Church and the final chapters of the Gospels and the Acts tell us how the Church was built. ... When, do you think, the Catholic Church became distinct from the whatever "church" you have in mind?

I base it on this entire thread, that for the statement to be true, the Apostles wrote what they never meant to say. Instead, they wrote only in riddles and puzzles that would confound the layman throughout time. This is not plausible.

On the second question, the church I have in mind is the Church of God, the one that Jesus formed. Of course there can be no one date when Catholicism "left" this church. From the quotes I've seen here, it doesn't look like things got off to a great start, although I am mindful that all of the quotes I have seen are probably the main ones with which I have disagreement. I would guess it is entirely possible that there are zillions of noncontroversial quotes from the early Fathers with which I would fully agree. Nevertheless, I see it as a gradual process, with power in the Church ever increasing. That power led to corruption in new ways not seen before until finally, God led some men to risk their lives to oppose the abuse. Then God gave birth to the Reformation.

7,981 posted on 06/07/2006 4:39:13 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper

"On the second question, the church I have in mind is the Church of God, the one that Jesus formed. Of course there can be no one date when Catholicism "left" this church."
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I think that point was reached when the Bishop of Rome began to claim special status and authority over all the other Bishops. IMHO, at this point the political became as important, if not more so, than the spiritual.


8,003 posted on 06/07/2006 6:31:06 AM PDT by wmfights (Lead, Follow, or Get Out Of The WAY!)
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To: Forest Keeper; wmfights
for the statement to be true [that the apostles built the Catohlic Church], the Apostles wrote what they never meant to say. Instead, they wrote only in riddles and puzzles

Like water meaning womb? The Catholic Church today sees no riddles and puzzles in the scripture and fully embraces all of it. If you don't, convert: there is a RCIA program in nearly every Catholic parish.

the church I have in mind is the Church of God, the one that Jesus formed

No you don't: that would be the Catholic (well, just as soon Orthodox) Church, but you deny both. It is silly to base your distruct of the Church on the fact thet her power increased, when this is exactly what the Apocalypse preduicted would be happening, as well as the current state of confusion. There is concrete scripture that describes the Church in very tangible terms, where priests baptise, hear confessions, give eucharist, annoint the sick, and young priests get ordained. It did not describe some abstraction, but a physical visible Church as a tangible institution.

8,049 posted on 06/07/2006 12:05:43 PM PDT by annalex
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