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To: blue-duncan; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper; jo kus; HarleyD; ...

"The Orthodox and Roman Catholics have as much if not more diversity in their ranks but don't have the liberty to leave and form other sects of like minded people because their salvation is not bound solely in Jesus but tied to the church."

We do? There is very little theological "diversity" within Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism on matters of dogmatic belief. In fact, there is "none". Those who don't want to believe what The Church teaches are certainly free to leave. That's where you Protestants came from, BD.

"...because their salvation is not bound solely in Jesus but tied to the church."

Interesting comment BD. It displays one of the fundamental tenets of Protestantism, I suppose, and demonstrates how Protestantism rejected 1500 years of Christian teaching in its mania to break with Rome. I suppose its possible that the reformers were ignorant of the writings of +Ignatius of Antioch (100 AD or so. +Ignatius was the second successor of +Peter as bishop of Antioch and was a disciple and friend of of +John. Some writings say he was the child called to sit on Christ's lap. At any rate, in his letter to the Smyrneans he wrote:

"You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic (universal) Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid."

You see, BD, making a distinction, for us humans and for our salvation, between The Church, being the bishop surrounded by his clergy and laity centered on the Eucharist, and all of us centered on Christ, is a false distinction, or so The Church has taught since the beginning. Now Protestantism may well hold that +Ignatius didn't know what he was talking about. The evidence would sem to point otherwise however. So if +Ignatius did know what he was talking about because he learned it from +Peter and +John, then it would seem that those "reformers" who set put to destroy The Church with heresy were wrong. Here one might well ask why they would do such a thing. The easy answer may be that the medieval Rome Church had itself fallen into such apostasy that reform was divinely ordained, but then got out of control. If we accept that, then why did it get out of control? Personally, I think the answer is pretty simple:

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." +John Chrysostomos.


7,678 posted on 06/03/2006 8:36:35 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; blue-duncan; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Forest Keeper; jo kus
We do? There is very little theological "diversity" within Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism on matters of dogmatic belief. In fact, there is "none". Does the Orthodox believe in purgatory? How about the Immaculate Conception? What about whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from Christ? Are the Orthodox churches willing to acquisite to the leaders of Rome? What about "original sin"?

You may pretend there is no differences but the simple fact that there is an Orthodox Church that refuses to submit to Rome suggest otherwise.

7,686 posted on 06/03/2006 10:46:26 AM PDT by HarleyD ("Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures" Luke 24:45)
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To: Kolokotronis; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg

For the actual origins of the Papacy, see below.

2. Actual origins of the papacy

http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/OP/OP.htm


7,691 posted on 06/03/2006 11:20:31 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Gal.4:16))
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