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To: jo kus
God gives us a gift. Faith. We can use it or not. God works within us the desire to do His will. We can choose to or not. At some level, man is expected to use his own intellect and will to decide on whether to follow the promptings that are foreign to him - to do good.

OK, but this doesn't answer my question about on what basis does man decide to accept God's gift of faith? Is it man-generated faith, as I have alleged? Or, is it rationalization and logic? Or, is it personal trust in a close friend who is a believer, etc.? If everyone has all the grace and information they need to accept Christ, then why does one man do it and another not do it? (This is ringing a bell for me, so maybe we've already covered this. Sorry, if true.)

You are forgetting that the Bible clearly expects man to respond at some level to God's gifts. It is MAN who will be judged based on what he does - not on what God does.

Well, I'm not forgetting that we have an honest disagreement about the use of the word "judgment" in scriptures, at least at times. I do not believe man will be judged for salvation based on what he does. The elect were selected before any of them were born, so what could they add or subtract from that based on anything they ever did? As you know, I believe that sometimes in the Bible, the reference to judgment is talking about rewards in heaven apart from salvation.

7,037 posted on 05/23/2006 2:48:17 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
"...on what basis does man decide to accept God's gift of faith? Is it man-generated faith, as I have alleged? Or, is it rationalization and logic? Or, is it personal trust in a close friend who is a believer, etc.? If everyone has all the grace and information they need to accept Christ, then why does one man do it and another not do it? (This is ringing a bell for me, so maybe we've already covered this. Sorry, if true.)"

Faith is not man-generated, but man is not totally passive in his response to the gift of God. Does everyone have all the grace and information they need? Enough to condemn themselves or to accept the Law written on their hearts. God will judge man based on the knowledge that HE gives that man.

I do not believe man will be judged for salvation based on what he does.

I would further clarify that by noting that Scriptures have different definitions of "works". James says they ARE necessary - because he is refering to works of love, good deeds done with pure motive (of course, a gift from God). Paul talks about "works" where God now owes man a reward for obey the Law. Paul says nothing man can do makes God a debtor, thus, to Paul, this form of "work of the law" cannot save. Thus, I believe Protestants err by forcing ALL actions of man into Paul's definition of works, when the Scriptures clearly tell us that "faith [without works] cannot save".

The elect were selected before any of them were born, so what could they add or subtract from that based on anything they ever did? A Catholic is flexible on predestination and what part man has to do with this. We can take your view, the Thomist view, or we can take Molina's view that God forsees man's response. God's foresight does not mean God ordained it. Thus, God certainly can see man's response to His graces.

I believe that sometimes in the Bible, the reference to judgment is talking about rewards in heaven apart from salvation.

More often, much more, though, judgment of Christians is seen as either heaven or hell. This is the general context when deeds are mentioned in the case of judgment. For example, Revelation 20. One's love or lack thereof will determine whether one goes to heaven or hell. If the Bible even mentions such things ONCE, than Sola Fide is destroyed. On ALL occasions, our Lord makes it clear that judgment will separate the good from the evil, not the good from the better.

Regards

7,056 posted on 05/23/2006 9:49:07 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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