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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex; qua; HarleyD; blue-duncan
So for you, the scripture says that faith plays no part in whether we go to hell, that it is only determined by the deeds that we do

Judaism holds that one is made acceptable to God by works. There is no reason to believe that the OT Patriarchs and Prophets believed otherwise.

How in the world could you know if [Adam and Eve] repented?

They didn't repent when God gave them a chance to repent in the Garden of Eden. Apparently, God did not find it necessary to re-visit their spiritual growth after they were kicked out of the Garden or else something would have been written about it, don't you think?

Besides, the icon of Resurrection shows them being pulled out of their graves in hell...so obviously the Church thought so to. The only thing I don't understand is how come they are fully formed humans (with clothes!) and all this time I thought the bones will not rattle and acquire new flesh until the Second Coming.

Faith saved in the OT and faith saves today. In the OT, the faithful looked forward to the Messiah, and KNEW that He would come. Today, the faithful look back on the Messiah, and KNOW that He came

A Jew who is an atheist can still be considered rigtheous in Judaism, so faith is not required. To the best of my knowledge, in the biblical times there were no atheists.

Today the faithful look FORWARD to Christ's second coming. The OT Jews expected a Messiah, but Judaism's view of the Messiah doesn't even come close to the Christian. The only ting we share is the Greek term.

5,977 posted on 05/08/2006 8:19:39 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; annalex; qua; HarleyD; blue-duncan; Agrarian; Dr. Eckleburg
Judaism holds that one is made acceptable to God by works. There is no reason to believe that the OT Patriarchs and Prophets believed otherwise.

Yeah, I'm not crystal clear on how this works. We know the Jews lived "under law". Yet we also know that Moses WROTE that righteousness was accorded to Abraham because of faith, not works. Moses also carried the law. So, I'm not so sure how these two ideas work together, other than to say that I think that all of the OT righteous did have faith.

They [Adam and Eve] didn't repent when God gave them a chance to repent in the Garden of Eden. Apparently, God did not find it necessary to re-visit their spiritual growth after they were kicked out of the Garden or else something would have been written about it, don't you think?

Thank God ours is a God of second chances! :) While God did kick them to the curb, He did not completely turn His back on them after the fall. In Gen. 3:21, God made coverings for them out of animal skins (the first sacrifice?). In addition, Eve shows signs of repentance and faith:

Gen. 4:1 : Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man."

That shows some faith to me. Adam also showed some positive signs:

Gen. 4:25-26 : 25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

That sounds like a bona fide praise of God by Adam. Plus, Adam and Eve were both still alive during this time that "men began to call on the name of the LORD". Since Adam was the oldest, it would make sense to me that he would have had something to do with that, from a human POV. So while it may not be a slam dunk, I tend to think of Adam and Eve as having been saved.

A Jew who is an atheist can still be considered rigtheous in Judaism, so faith is not required. To the best of my knowledge, in the biblical times there were no atheists.

Well OK, but we are only talking about the Judaism of Biblical times. I'm not sure how close today's Jewish faith is to that of the OT righteous. I would guess not very close. No Jew of the OT could consider a man to be righteous if he did not believe in God.

6,376 posted on 05/12/2006 5:32:44 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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