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To: kosta50; jo kus
FK: "So, yes, I would see it as God giving up control if He "risked" losing one of His elect to himself."

Then how is He omnipotent (using your own argument)?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I believe that God's omnipotence is secure because He never takes a risk of losing any of His elect.

But I think you are mistaken about [God] not letting you go. Matthew 21:43 says:

"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."

And two of the next three verses say:

Matt. 21:45-46 : 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

I would disagree if you are saying that these people were ever saved, and then lost their salvation. When did they ever accept Christ as Lord? Never. How could they have ever been saved? Do you really have a sense that these people ever had a faith that should ever be accorded to them as righteousness? I don't, except that at least Nicodemus showed some good signs. They actively rejected the Christ. How does anyone with true faith REJECT the very one they were supposed to be looking forward to? It only makes sense that if they did have true faith, Jesus would have opened their eyes. They weren't even baptized, were they? These are the same people who freed a serial killer in order that Jesus be put to death.

5,196 posted on 04/27/2006 2:40:07 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
I would disagree if you are saying that these people were ever saved, and then lost their salvation. When did they ever accept Christ as Lord? Never. How could they have ever been saved?

I have already told you -- they believe in the same God. They just didn't see Jesus Christ as their God of Abraham. So, are you now saying that one must believe in God the Father and God the Son to be saved? The New Testament says we are saved by faith alone -- faith in one God, God of Abraham (who also happens to be our Lord Jesus Christ, our Lord Holy Spirit and our Lord the Father). Where does it say in the OT that one must be baptized to be made righteous before God? Or is that part of the OT you selectively reject?

My point was to show that their kingdom of God could be taken away from them even though they believed. To me that suggests that they were saved but were about to lose it.

They actively rejected the Christ

Almost all of Israel rejected Christ and Christians. By the time +Paul was writing his epistles, the Jewish followers of Chirst were being thrown out of the synagogues. Without Paul "selling" this new type of Judaism to the Gentiles, Christianity would have died out like Sadducees and Essenes have. So, please then tell me that the Jews are not saved because they believe in the God of Abraham, but we are. Where did the righteous OT Hebrews come from? Did they accept Christ? If Adam and Eve could be saved, I think there is hope for more than you believe.

In one of your more recent posts you were asking how could anyone not believe when God parted the Red Sea. Indeed, how could the Jews not believe in Jesus when he performed all the miracles. And wasn't Moses convinced of God's power by what we could call "magic" today? Such as turning his walking stick into a snake and back? If tricks and magic are what you call "revealed faith" you are sadly mistaken. Most of the "convincing evidence" in the Bible consists of such miracles and what we would call natural disasters.

Obviously, the Jews were not impressed with the parting of the Red Sea, or else they would not have made a golden calf or worshiped pagan gods on numerous occasions in their fickle history. Obviously, those who called Christ to come down form the Cross wre waiting for the same "sign" and miracle from a Miracle Maker He was renown for. That does not tell me that their faith, or even the faith of Christians was anything but based on observed miracles and hearsay, not based on spiritual revelations.

Yet today we believe that faith is "given" to us without miracles and without any faculty of logic or reason. In all these instances I see a lot of MEN doing and saying things they ascribe to God. The only thing mankind cannot manipulate is the message which none of us can emulate fully but know that is it s good.

5,201 posted on 04/27/2006 4:20:57 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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