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To: HarleyD; stripes1776; Forest Keeper; qua; blue-duncan; AlbionGirl; kosta50; Kolokotronis
Satan was the cause. God granted permission

And Job chose not to curse God. Did God allow that too? Yes, He did allow it, and by virtue of that allowance we possess yje freedom to choose, the "allowance" of God being limited only to our freedom and not to our choices, lest the choices are not free.

If God is a God of life, then He did not create evil that is the cause of death. The evil is inherent in our freedom to estrange ourselves from God. Yes, God allows that. But He also allows for us to cleave to Him. As Fr. John S. Romanides says that in God's domain "there are other wills which He created, which can choose either the kingdom of God or the kingdom of death and destruction."

Our disagreement is rooted in Calvinist refusal to accept free will as the gift of God. In your theology, God not only predestined satan to make cruel but foolish attempts with Job, but He also predestined Job's suffering and refusal to give in to satan! Where is the guilt and the credit if all this choosing and reacting is all God's doing?

Allowance has nothing to do with who is the author of evil because God allows us to be wicked or good. If we choose to be wicked, we do so on our own because He doesn't help us commit sin, so we commit sin all on our own. On the other hand, if we wish to do good and ask Him for help, He will grant our wish and help us do good.

4,699 posted on 04/16/2006 12:19:20 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex; jo kus

ping #4699


4,700 posted on 04/16/2006 12:20:15 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; stripes1776; Forest Keeper; qua; blue-duncan; AlbionGirl; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
And Job chose not to curse God. Did God allow that too?

Our disagreement is rooted in Calvinist refusal to accept free will as the gift of God.

"...God allows us to be wicked or good.


4,703 posted on 04/16/2006 4:13:36 PM PDT by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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To: kosta50; HarleyD
Our disagreement is rooted in Calvinist refusal to accept free will as the gift of God. In your theology, God not only predestined satan to make cruel but foolish attempts with Job, but He also predestined Job's suffering and refusal to give in to satan! Where is the guilt and the credit if all this choosing and reacting is all God's doing?

Allowance has nothing to do with who is the author of evil because God allows us to be wicked or good. If we choose to be wicked, we do so on our own because He doesn't help us commit sin, so we commit sin all on our own. On the other hand, if we wish to do good and ask Him for help, He will grant our wish and help us do good.

That sums up the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church's stance. Man has free will, given by God, since we were made in His image. I don't see this issue being resolved by force of argument - there is Scriptural verses that note both sides of the argument. We must rely on our respective Traditions and religious paradigms to interpret WHAT Scripture means. Which verses do we emphasize, and which ones do we consider as meant only for a certain time and people? If we believe that Jesus Christ is the culmination of God's revelation, I believe that answer lies with the fact that man has free will and is expected to utilize it to come to believe in Jesus Christ through God's graces. Those who focus on God's sovereignty to the extent of refuting free will must refer to the Old Testament in most cases.

Those are my opinions. I think we have said enough on the issue of free will. God bless to you all!

Regards

4,717 posted on 04/17/2006 9:38:43 AM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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