[HarleyD]

But I don't see anywhere in 1 John 2:1 that makes your claim that non-believers do NOT have an advocate in Jesus. You are jumping to conclusions and twisting Scripture.

So our Lord Jesus died for everyone and now He is the advocate for everyone?!? I doubt very seriously if you'll find any support for this view among any church father.

In one sentence, you have Jesus advocating only for believers, then in the very next sentence, He has died for the sins of ALL men, the whole world.

No, I saying our Lord Jesus died and is the advocate for His believers. You're the one saying He died for the sins of all and is the advocate of all.

My point is not the origin of my faith, but the perseverance.

Well, in that case who keeps you in the love of Christ, you or Him?

YOU presume that because of this initial justification, a person cannnot lose their standing with God - thus, you tie your initial justification with being of the elect. Unfortunately, experience shows us that...

A person's "standing with God" rests upon our Lord Jesus, not on ourselves. I tie my justification on the finished work of Christ and His promise, not on anything that I may or may not do. What "experience" or "feelings" shows is inconsequential. Neither you nor I knows anyone's heart. We rest on God's promise. Our Lord Jesus has promised to keep me and not allow anyone to snatch me out of His hand. I believe it. You choose not to.

God will see me home not based upon me running to church to take communion or participating in the local food drive. God will see me home because He has graciously and mercifully opened my eyes so that I may see to the praise of His glory.

1) Your theology will not let you admit that it was Christ and ONLY Christ that enabled that person to be in the Lord, to abide in Him during that period.

2) You totally discount the idea that a person can do no good without Christ

The Holy Spirit doesn't pop in and out of a person like Topper's ghost. We are not sick with sin. We are DEAD! We cannot be cure. We must be reborn.

ONLY Christ rebirths us and enables us to abide in Him and brings forth good works. Any good that I may possibly do for God's glory is not me but Christ working in me. There is NOTHING that I have that I can offer God. It is all filthy rags. Christ must work through me and I must abide with Him.

A person outside of Christ can do "good" things but they are evil. (Matt 7:11) They cannot do anything pleasing to God just as I can't do anything pleasing to God. It must be Christ working through us and they just have not been reborn for that to happen.

[jo kus]

So our Lord Jesus died for everyone and now He is the advocate for everyone?!? I doubt very seriously if you'll find any support for this view among any church father.

Well, I'm not an expert of Church Fathers, but I will do my best...

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For 'cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.'" Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110).

And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life." Hermas, The Shephard, 3:8:7 (A.D. 155).

"Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.'" Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 (A.D. 180).

"But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?" Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 (A.D. 204).

I believe the Great Commission takes for granted that all men can potentially be saved (from our point of view. We know that God knows who will not choose God)

Well, in that case who keeps you in the love of Christ, you or Him?

Christ graces me enough so that I may choose His ways, imperfectly as I do.

A person's "standing with God" rests upon our Lord Jesus, not on ourselves...

It rests on us, as well.

"That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20.

No mention whatsoever about Christ's righteousness. Actually, I am not aware of ANYWHERE IN THE GOSPELS that makes that claim that Christ's rightousness covers up our need to become holy.

The Holy Spirit doesn't pop in and out of a person like Topper's ghost. We are not sick with sin. We are DEAD! We cannot be cure. We must be reborn.

That only addresses initial justification. What about those who fall away AFTER that justification?

Any good that I may possibly do for God's glory is not me but Christ working in me. There is NOTHING that I have that I can offer God. It is all filthy rags. Christ must work through me and I must abide with Him.

That ignores huge chunks of Scripture that talk about men being righteous, men being judged based on their deeds, and men being commanded to follow the Commandments or Christ's ways. You are looking at this in an "Either/or" situation. Either ALL God or ALL men. God and men work together. Even St. Augustine admits this.

A person outside of Christ can do "good" things but they are evil.

So answer my question that I have asked you: WHO drives that person who is Christian for 10 years before they fall away? You say "he never was saved to begin with". But then you contradict yourself that "ONLY God can make a person love, etc.". So during those ten years of faithful service to God, WHO exactly led that person? The Holy Spirit? Or does the devil also make us do good deeds?

This is a major contradiction in Calvinism that you have not been able to answer.

Regards