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To: jo kus
Sure He did. If I give a gift to you, and you don't use it, I still gave it to you, didn't I?

Tsk, tsk. Sound like you're saying you must do something for your salvation. Not exactly the grace of God is it?

God gives everyone the potential to utilize the gifts given. Why? Because God is Love. Love gives of itself UNCONDITIONALLY. You are thinking in human terms.

Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8,9). Not all men have faith (2 Thess 3:2). Therefore God does not give His give to everyone.

I am thinking in Biblical terms. Not in the lovey-dovey Greek philosophical terms.

3,370 posted on 03/08/2006 1:07:17 PM PST by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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To: HarleyD; jo kus
lovey-dovey terms

The Old Testament has two pages of "love" on my search engine; the New Testament has nine. It is clear where your heart is.

3,373 posted on 03/08/2006 3:56:38 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper
Tsk, tsk. Sound like you're saying you must do something for your salvation. Not exactly the grace of God is it?

Of course we must do something for salvation! Are you a quietist? Jesus called us to "Repent and believe". Is this not DOING something? We aren't earning salvation, but we are told to CHOOSE God. Again and again...

Let me give you a quote from St. John Crysostom's Homily on 2 Thessalonians (chapter 3, verse 3 - which coincides with your verse from 2 Thes 3:2). "Do not doubt it. God is faithful. He has promised salvation, He will save you. But, as He said, He will do so on one condition - that we love Him, that we listen to His Word and His Law. He will not save us unless we cooperate"

St. Augustine says nearly the same thing, as I have quoted before. Tradition clearly teaches the reality of sufficient grace, which through man's fault remains inefficacious.

Again, St. Augustine says "His mercy comes before us in everything. But to assent to or dissent from the call of God is a matter of one's own will" (De Spiritu et litt. 34,60)

Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8,9). Not all men have faith (2 Thess 3:2). Therefore God does not give His give to everyone.

Paul is not making the statement that you are implying - that God does not give His gifts to everyone. Here in 2 Thes., Paul is refering to the wicked and evil men - probably a reference to certain Jews hostile to Christianity who had persecuted Paul in Macedonia and were now putting obstacles in his way elsewhere. A few verses later, Paul says : "Now we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walks out of order, and not after the doctrine which ye received of us." (2 Thess 3:6). It seems that Paul is trying to guard the flock under his care against these same "wicked and evil men" of 4 verses prior - those Jews who are against the Gospel, who are obstinate in their opinions of how God operates. Jesus faced the same type of men during His ministry. Thus, I don't see these verses in the same light as you do

Couple this with other verses in Scripture that tell us that men CAN refuse the grace of God:

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers [did], so [do] ye." Acts 7:51

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that didst kill the prophets and stone those who are sent unto thee, how often I desired to gather thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!" Mat 23:37

I find this one pretty convincing that God is a God of universal love...It is quite similar to one of my favorite passages in the Psalms, the God who pleads for us...

"I [am] the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt; open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people did not hearken to my voice, and Israel did not love me. So I gave them up unto the hardness of their heart, [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh, if my people would hearken unto me [and] Israel would walk in my ways!" Ps 81:10-13

God greatly desires that we choose Him. Can't you hear it in His "voice"?

"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed and keep all my statutes and live according to judgment and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his rebellions that he has committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him; by his righteousness that he has done he shall live. Do I desire perchance the death of the wicked? said the Lord GOD, Shall he not live if he should leave his ways? " Ez 18:21-24

This section continues that the righteous will lose their "status" with God if they sin...

"But if the righteous should leave his righteousness and commit iniquity, [and] do according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned; by his rebellion in which he has trespassed and by his sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die" Ez 19:24-25. So much for "once saved, always saved..."

And finally, Paul writes:

"We then, [as] workers together [with him], exhort [you] also that ye have not received the grace of God in vain." 2 Cor 6:1

"Follow peace with everyone and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord: looking diligently that no one deviate from the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up impede [you], and thereby many be defiled." Heb 13:14-15

"This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, so that according to past prophecies regarding thee, that thou by them might war a good warfare; holding fast faith and a good conscience, which some, having cast away, have shipwrecked in [their] faith" 1 Tim 1:18-19

For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful hope of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

God desires that all men be saved. He grants His graces to people - and allows them to choose life or death. Oh, yes, brother, we can choose death. Even we can allow our faith to falter and grace to fall on us in vain...

I am thinking in Biblical terms. Not in the lovey-dovey Greek philosophical terms.

I don't know how Greek philosophy is "lovey-dovey". That's a new one for me, seeing how they taught that God is so far transcendant from man that He requires a Logos to come to man. But I do know that you are not thinking in Biblical terms as per how the Apostles interpreted the Scriptures.

Regards

3,375 posted on 03/08/2006 4:04:48 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: HarleyD
Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8,9). Not all men have faith (2 Thess 3:2). Therefore God does not give His give to everyone

There is no "therefore". God gives faith to all who ask for it, but not all ask and not all keep what they receive. Need scripture for that? Just ask.

3,380 posted on 03/08/2006 7:56:29 PM PST by annalex
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