Hmm. How else can I explain this? You still place God within time. Perhaps this might help. Look at the Nicean Creed: "{Jesus} is eternally begotten from the Father". If we look at things from your point of view, HOW can we say Jesus IS being begotten??? That is because you are failing to see that God sees time as one now, one event. The Creation and the end of time are seen in one glance. Eternally begotten doesn't mean He was begotten during a particular time, but it ETERNALLY BEING begotten. There is no time for God, so there is no question about the "chicken or the egg"!
God sees our creation, birth, response to His Spirit, our death, and union with Him in heaven (if of the elect) as one event. How can God NOT see our response "before" we choose? It's all one event.
I never said man chooses God first. To us, He takes the initiative. But it is perfectly feasible to see that He would "see" our response as part of His initiative. There is not a time that is not accessible to God all at once. God doesn't think about us, then create us, then watch us being born, then ensure that we receive the graces proper to the elect in His point of view. That is from our vantage point, since we are in time. To God, all of the above is done simultaneously, since there He is beyond Time.
Obviously, it is no where in the Bible.
That God is not bound by creation? Do I need to prove that?
According to your beliefs, God gave everyone reasonably enough information, of course tailored to the individual's capacities, etc., to make a decision between spending eternity, in God's presence, in perfect Heaven with all love abounding infinitely all around us, OR burning for all eternity in a fiery pit, with wailing and weeping and gnashing of teeth in eternal pain and torment? Part of me wants to agree with you that this is a very difficult choice, seeing as how God gave everyone enough information. :)
God doesn't give everyone that sort of information. God gives EVEN THE GENTILES (Romans 2) a Natural Law, a law written on EVERYONE'S heart that tells them what is right and what is wrong. Everyone "knows" the Golden rule - "do unto others as you would have them do to you". Everyone "knows" that stealing is wrong, because if someone steals from THEM, they get upset...Why get upset if someone doesn't perceive something wrong being done to them? A person can decide to follow this Golden Rule, to do for others what are written out in the Decalogue. When a person abides in Christ by the man's love, He is a son of God, in an unknown and mysterious manner. We cannot love without Christ. By loving others for their own sake, we KNOW Christ abides in that person. Thus, a person doesn't have to know about heaven or hell. A person is to choose between doing good to others or being selfish and concerned only about themselves. It is clear that EVERYONE can make these decisions - with God's guidance and help, they will choose the good.
I would assume you would say that this is them choosing against God, whereas I would say it is God not granting grace
God rains down His grace upon all, the good and the evil. God spreads His "seed" upon ALL ground. God even DIED for ALL men, not just the elect...Scripture clearly notes you are incorrect. God gives everyone sufficient grace, since He desires ALL men to be saved.
Could God put love into these hearts if He wanted to?
"PUT" love into one's heart? Is that love? A person can be disposed of to serve others, to be more open to God's graces and blessings, but in the end, love is not love if one does not choose.
God is good on His promises. I would need to know more on how you define "falling away". Surely it happens that saved Christians go through dark times and neglect their faiths, but God always pulls His elect through. Every single time. You say that your unassurance is why you have "hope". But, as I said long, long, ago, "hope" means much more than "wish for".
God didn't promise you personally that you were of the elect. You can judge that you are based on your love, your faith in God, your response to God. But this tells us little of our response in 2010. We HOPE we will remain in Christ. But those who do not abide in Christ will not be saved.
You have always looked to the mouth of "Johnny Sinner", as he says his prayer, for your guarantee. It's not there. The guarantee is in God's word. His word will show whether Johnny's prayer was any good or not. Since I can only speak for myself, I am confident in my assurance, and that my prayer "took". :)
God's word? You hear voices? What are you talking about? As to your confidence that your prayers took, how confident were you immediately following the first time you did it - then fell away, a proposition that could have lasted until your death? Yes, we can have confidence that we are in the Lord, but that doesn't assure that we are of the elect. It only helps us trust in the Lord today.
Wow! You're strict. What would you accept as evidence or proof? How many God points do I need? :)
There is NOTHING you can do that will prove you are of the elect 5 years from now. What sort of question is that? All we can do is look at our current stance with the Lord and our past - trusting in God's mercy that if we were to die today, He would have brought us into heaven.
You surprise me when you say that God's promises are only for those who follow Him, but do not make a mistake (presumably any time) later. What is the use of confession, if God's promises are of no value to any person who sins after being baptized?
That is from God's eternal point of view. Only His sheep will follow Him. But that doesn't mean every minute of the day. Confession is for those who desire to rectify their relationship with God and others. God doesn't make promises to those who turn away from Him without repentance.
According to you, therefore, God's promises are not to us. That's OK. I will give you that you are consistent.
I have never judged you this way. I am only saying that you are being presumptuous on your status with the Lord 5 years from now, or the day of your death. God's promises are not for those who turn away and don't repent. It has nothing to do with being Protestant or being Catholic.
When it comes to the elect, there is no "still". One is either a member from before time began and for all time, or one is not, and never will be. God is the only judge of what "falling away" means, how long and how much. That's another reason why we are so careful not to speculate on the salvation of others.
Looking from God's perspective, again... You just don't have that information about your future - God knows whether you are of the elect, but you don't know. Haven't you admitted that reciting the Sinner's Prayer does not make you of the Elect? Thus, you are saying that your good deeds are the basis for your understanding of your being of the elect. But how do you know you will continue in your good deeds - and thus, your foundation for determining your salvation in heaven is taken away? I know of people who were Christian for many years, and fell away from Christ. Who would have thought - 20 years of good deeds - now they are agnostic... but you know you won't be that way...
Logically, if we are still in jeopardy of somehow losing this salvation, we are not in a very “safe” place."
Please. That is not logical. Nothing there about permanent safety is suggested by your quote. After King David expanded Israel's territory, providing peace and safety to all Jews during his rule, did that prevent the Assyrians and Babylonians from conquering ALL of Israel??? A safe place today can be VERY unsafe tommorrow...
You have to invent the idea of being saved over and over again. (Not you personally, of course :) You also must throw into the trash the normal meaning of the word "saved", past tense. What do you think Jesus meant when He said "It is finished"? Does He have more work to do to pay for our sins?
I am merely reading Scripture. "Being saved" refers to past, present, and future utilizations. Paul uses all three tenses. If you like, I will post them. When Jesus healed someone, did that mean they never got sick again??? When Jesus said "it was finished", it means His life was finished. He died. The suffering was over. He had completed His Father's will. That doesn't mean HIS WORK was done! Christ's work continues to this day! He continues to bring people into the Kingdom of God! For example, I recall that Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD! Why would He do that if "His work was finished"? Why His continued teachings? Why breathe upon the Disciples, giving them the power to forgive sins? Why the Great Commission?
I just wanted to point out that you are quoting Moses (Dt 30:19), even though it sounds like the quote might be from God. And, no, I'm not accusing you of anything. :) My point is only that the POV is human and not divine.
Sorry, Moses is giving God's revelation - or do you doubt that Scripture is God's Word?
"These [are] the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb." Dt 29:1.
Moses continues for several chapters revealing what God's commands were...What can I say?
Sure, the point of view is human. From our point of view, we CHOOSE God or not. From our point of view, we have free will to make this decision. God allows us to choose - since love demands it.
Regards
I have never had any problem with God being omniscient. He doesn't just correctly guess everything we will ever do, He sees and He knows. He does see our response before we "choose", but the key is that He sees it before He creates us, physically. (You agreed that in real time God existed before man.)
[continuing ...] I never said man chooses God first. To us, He takes the initiative. But it is perfectly feasible to see that He would "see" our response as part of His initiative.
And there's the rub. How much of God's foreknowledge went into His decision on whom He would pick as the elect? I would say zero, and you can answer for yourself. If you say anything greater than zero, then that intrudes on God's sovereignty.
FK: "Obviously, it is no where in the Bible."
That God is not bound by creation? Do I need to prove that?
No, I was referring to my immediately prior sentences about your assertions that God chooses us and we choose Him simultaneously. I was saying I didn't think that was Biblically supported, and that I had not heard an explanation as to how that works. To what degree is God in control, how much luck is involved, how much credit do the elect deserve for making the right choice, etc.? That kind of thing.
God doesn't give everyone that sort of information. God gives EVEN THE GENTILES (Romans 2) a Natural Law, a law written on EVERYONE'S heart that tells them what is right and what is wrong. Everyone "knows" the Golden rule - "do unto others as you would have them do to you". Everyone "knows" that stealing is wrong, because if someone steals from THEM, they get upset...
I think it is an over generalization to say that the difference between right and wrong is written into EVERYONE's heart. I would say likewise about everyone knowing the Golden Rule. That rule is quickly learned through experience, but what says a person is born knowing it? There are just too many obvious exceptions to this idea. This sounds too "man-centered" to me.
God rains down His grace upon all, the good and the evil. God spreads His "seed" upon ALL ground. God even DIED for ALL men, not just the elect...Scripture clearly notes you are incorrect. God gives everyone sufficient grace, since He desires ALL men to be saved.
So God gives everyone SAVING grace? Your faith is more man-centered than I thought. Assuming you are talking about prevenient grace, here is an excerpt from A Short Response to the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace ... by John Hendryx:
"Arminian Similarities with Reformed Theology:
(1) All men need to be saved from God's wrath through the atoning work of Christ.
(2) Both Reformed and Arminians believe, that, without the grace of God, man is totally incapable of responding to the Gospel. In this both positions are in total agreement.
Arminian Differences with Reformed Theology in its understanding of grace:
Lets observe at least three ways in which prevenient grace sharply differs from the biblical view of monergism:
(1) That the Arminian doctrine of "prevenient grace" is universal to all persons on earth whether or not they have heard the gospel. (But doesn't the Bible state, "how can one be believe if they have not heard?" and "...faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." - Rom 10: 14-17. This view, then, embraces the idea that the gospel is not necessary for one to be saved. In spite of the overwhelming case made by Paul against the Gentiles in Romans 1-3, the Arminians believe that some who have never heard the gospel can actually live their whole life without violating their conscience in sinless perfection, and thus be saved.)
(2) Prevenient grace is not effectual but puts us in a "neutral" frame of reference (fallen man can either swing to receive or reject Christ) But this raises a question. If our desires are "neutral" what causes a man to choose one way or another? It is both biblical (A thorn tree does not produce grapes) and self-evident that we always choose something based on our greatest desires. If we do not desire God or the world, choice is either impossible or it is by chance. Lets be clear that this concept is no where taught in the Bible. Arminians awkwardly force this on the Scripture in order to hold their system together. This alone should lead us to reject it. Unaided reason should NEVER be the foundation of our theological insights.
(3) Arminians hold that while still unregenerate some can and will improve on grace ... that God's prevenient grace takes us part of the way to salvation but man's still unregenerate will does the rest. Therefore, if all human beings have this prevenient grace at some point in their life, it wasn't grace that makes men to differ but the persons who made use of what God gave them which makes them to differ.
In other words some men had the ability to create a right thought, generate a right affection, or originate a right volition that was autonomous, beyond and independent of grace that led to their salvation while other men could not come up with what was needed to be saved. Why do some men make use of grace and not others? So, to the Arminian, the grace of God is still penultimate while the sinners faith is ultimate, the sine qua non of his salvation. So whether or not God extends prevenient grace you still have the same result: one man from his unregenerate will generates belief, another man from his unregenerate will does not generate belief and rejects Christ. What makes these two persons to differ? If they both received prevenient grace, why does one believe and not the other? One is making a morally good choice and the other a morally bad choice. Any way to look at Arminian prevenient grace it is merit that ultimately makes men to differ and besides having no biblical support this makes the position untenable. They are making the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and do not agree that it is the effectual gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble. I guess Arminians believe that some beggars are more equal than others. ...
The Scriptures testify that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Even with prevenient grace theoretically putting humanity in a neutral position, we would still lack the quickening Spirit to give us what we need. How is it then that the natural man can understand or desire God independent of grace? Can a blind man see prior to his eyes being opened? Can a man with a heart of stone love and desire God before His heart is made flesh? How can a ox desire flesh to eat or water rise above its source? We believe that salvation is of the Lord from beginning to end. He deserves all the glory. While we were still helpless Christ died for us and His death purchased everything we need to be saved, including our regeneration. For an unregenerate man would not ever desire the things of God on his own. If God's grace does not save us then man still ultimately decides based on some principle within, either good or evil."
I will continue in my next post.
FK: "Could God put love into these hearts if He wanted to?"
"PUT" love into one's heart? Is that love? A person can be disposed of to serve others, to be more open to God's graces and blessings, but in the end, love is not love if one does not choose.
Therefore, all of the love for God that we have comes only from within ourselves, and not from God. Just as God created satan, who later became evil, so did God create us, and we later developed love for Him on our own? Is this a fair statement of your view?
FK: "You have always looked to the mouth of "Johnny Sinner", as he says his prayer, for your guarantee [of assurance]. It's not there. The guarantee is in God's word. ...
God's word? You hear voices? What are you talking about? As to your confidence that your prayers took, how confident were you immediately following the first time you did it - then fell away, a proposition that could have lasted until your death?
I'm sorry. Whenever I refer to "God's word" I am talking about the Bible. I didn't know that Catholics don't see it that way. ... When I said the sinner's prayer as a teenager I was very confident of my salvation. That never changed, even when I fell away during college, because at that time I believed in OSAS. (Lucky for me :) Had I not been of the elect then that condition would have lasted until my death. But, praise Jesus, it didn't turn out like that. :)
FK: "Wow! You're strict. What would you accept as evidence or proof? How many God points do I need? :)"
There is NOTHING you can do that will prove you are of the elect 5 years from now. What sort of question is that? All we can do is look at our current stance with the Lord and our past - trusting in God's mercy that if we were to die today, He would have brought us into heaven.
Well, at least you answered my question, so thank you. :) I believe that through scripture, God offers all of His elect the gift of assurance, and I have just chosen to accept it.
I am only saying that you are being presumptuous on your status with the Lord 5 years from now, or the day of your death. God's promises are not for those who turn away and don't repent. It has nothing to do with being Protestant or being Catholic.
Then if I am following your logic, since no one can say what his status will be with the Lord 5 years from now, then ALL of God's promises are USELESS to anyone TODAY. NO ONE can know if God's promises apply to him personally, so they are all useless. Is that what you mean?
God knows whether you are of the elect, but you don't know. Haven't you admitted that reciting the Sinner's Prayer does not make you of the Elect? Thus, you are saying that your good deeds are the basis for your understanding of your being of the elect.
I certainly have admitted that saying the sinner's prayer does not change me from being of the non-elect into being of the elect. I believe that is true. I don't think at all that whatever my good deeds are, this is a basis for assurance. The assurance comes strictly from the Bible, and the good deeds are a simple evidence that I am on the right path. I actually believe that for some people it is possible to fall away without really ever realizing or intending it to happen. So, if I ever noticed, or it was pointed out to me, that my good deeds took a dramatic downturn, then it would be a bright red flag to me to take stock of my condition in Christ.
I know of people who were Christian for many years, and fell away from Christ. Who would have thought - 20 years of good deeds - now they are agnostic... but you know you won't be that way...
I am very sorry about those people. You have said that I cannot prove it to you, but 'Yes', I know. I am by no means better or smarter than any of them, it is just something that speaks to me from scripture.
[From the article FK cited:] Logically, if we are still in jeopardy of somehow losing this salvation, we are not in a very “safe” place.
Please. That is not logical. Nothing there about permanent safety is suggested by your quote. After King David expanded Israel's territory, providing peace and safety to all Jews during his rule, did that prevent the Assyrians and Babylonians from conquering ALL of Israel???
The author is obviously talking about salvational "safety", not physical safety. No one is ever guaranteed physical safety no matter who he is. Ask Jesus. :)
"Being saved" refers to past, present, and future utilizations. Paul uses all three tenses. If you like, I will post them. When Jesus healed someone, did that mean they never got sick again???
Do you equate a physical healing with the Biblical meaning of the word "saved"???
[continuing ...] When Jesus said "it was finished", it means His life was finished. He died. The suffering was over. He had completed His Father's will.
The only thing I DO agree with is that He completed His father's will. What do you say that will was?
[continuing ...] That doesn't mean HIS WORK was done! Christ's work continues to this day! He continues to bring people into the Kingdom of God! For example, I recall that Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD! Why would He do that if "His work was finished"? Why His continued teachings? Why breathe upon the Disciples, giving them the power to forgive sins? Why the Great Commission?
Nice try, but I specifically said "Does He have more work to do to pay for our sins?" You don't address that at all here.
[On Dt. 30:19, and to FK noting that it was actually Moses speaking and not God directly :] Sorry, Moses is giving God's revelation - or do you doubt that Scripture is God's Word? ... Sure, the point of view is human. From our point of view, we CHOOSE God or not. ...
No, I have no doubt that scripture is God's word. And, as Harley said earlier, this is an example of an outward call. It was for the same reason that we are to spread the Gospel to the whole world, as opposed to only a select few. That's why I thought it was important that the POV was human. The "choosing" is a human perception, when unknown to probably most who do it at the time, it was actually God who chose us first.