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To: jo kus

I only have time to respond to a couple of points. I did read your explanation for why there are so many annulments in the Catholic Church today. Here it is:

"The truth of the matter is that society has made divorce too easy. Couples don't truly try to work things out. Why should they? Everyone tells them about no-fault divorce. People are more interested in “getting out while the getting is good...” As a result, it is not surprising that the Church grants more annulments than it once did. There is NOT the full and free commitment to the indissolubility of the covenant as there once was."

So basically, you are saying that because of the effects of society, lots of Catholics are being married in the Catholic Church without a "full and free commitment to the indissolubility of the covenant", and "they don't try to work things out." Therefore, there will as a matter of course be a lot more annulments than in the past.

Yet later, you tell me that in the case of a married couple with children that the Church won't "readily" grant an annulment. You go on to say that separation is permitted under canon law, but not remarriage.

But remarriage is, in practice, the ultimate point to annulments, isn't it? Without it, a Catholic cannot get remarried and still be a communicating member of the Catholic Church. How often, really, are annulments sought in cases where neither member of the couple is wanting to remarry?

I'm not casting stones in a glass house, because in practice, that is when Orthodox ecclesiastical divorces are granted. The purpose to the process is to see if the original marriage is salvagable (which it basically isn't, at this point), to see about the spiritual welfare of the children of the previous marriage, and to give an opportunity for the Church to interject a strong sense of seriousness about the proposed remarriage -- that it is a falling short of the ideal and requires repentance, and that the reason the first marriage fell apart was because there was something spiritually wrong in the first situation that needs to be addressed.

Almost by definition, a couple that is getting divorced does not involve people who are deeply involved in the life of Christ through the Church. Broken marriages involve broken people. The question is how should the Church approach broken people? Christ's actions should make that clear. He always forgave sins, restored them to fellowship, and told them to "go and sin no more." This no more means that Christ was approving of those sins than does the fact that the Orthodox Church allows up to two remarriages mean that we approve of divorce, and it is basically what the Orthodox Church does in the process of granting an ecclesiastical divorce.

Believe me, we in the Orthodox Church take very seriously the ideal of the one-time marriage. In fact, remarriage after the death of a spouse is discouraged, and in the case of clergy, forbidden (to make clear what the ideal is.)


3,335 posted on 03/07/2006 9:06:00 AM PST by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian
Yet later, you tell me that in the case of a married couple with children that the Church won't "readily" grant an annulment. You go on to say that separation is permitted under canon law, but not remarriage.

A couple who has been married for a number of years, say over ten, will less likely be able to get an annulment - with all things otherwise being equal. In any case, the Church would much prefer that people work it out.

But remarriage is, in practice, the ultimate point to annulments, isn't it? Without it, a Catholic cannot get remarried and still be a communicating member of the Catholic Church. How often, really, are annulments sought in cases where neither member of the couple is wanting to remarry?

I don't know such statistics. An annulment is not necessary if one merely separates, so in one way, you are correct. People don't normally seek annulments unless they realize that the first "marriage" will cause an impediment to a potential second one. But this is not always true. However, people have a way of doing things for different reasons than what the Church intends.

Almost by definition, a couple that is getting divorced does not involve people who are deeply involved in the life of Christ through the Church.

It would seem that way, but it is not necessarily true.

He always forgave sins, restored them to fellowship, and told them to "go and sin no more." This no more means that Christ was approving of those sins than does the fact that the Orthodox Church allows up to two remarriages mean that we approve of divorce, and it is basically what the Orthodox Church does in the process of granting an ecclesiastical divorce.

I did not intend on attacking the Orthodox's ecclesiastical process for such matters by talking about Catholic annulments. I am certainly not an expert on Canon Law. All I know is what the Church teaches about such matters. The Church teaches that abortion is a grave evil. Yet, people do it. Does that mean we do away with the law that abortion is gravely evil? No. We call people to live the life of Christ. Being a disciple of Christ entails dying to self. Yes, many people will have a difficult time with this teaching. But if they leave the Eucharist over it, how strong was their faith to begin with? I'd prefer not to make such broad generalizations, even though I am... I do not envy the priest who has to counsel a couple who are on the verge of a civil divorce, a young couple.

Regards

3,342 posted on 03/07/2006 4:11:47 PM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: Agrarian; jo kus
[To Jo:] Believe me, we in the Orthodox Church take very seriously the ideal of the one-time marriage. In fact, remarriage after the death of a spouse is discouraged, and in the case of clergy, forbidden (to make clear what the ideal is.)

That's interesting about remarriage after the death of a spouse. From my POV, I would say it's OK to get remarried in this case because the vow before God was honored and completed. Since the surviving spouse is not "broken", as you describe in the case of most marriage dissolutions, why is this an ideal? I could be wrong about this, but in the OT, if a married man died, wasn't it the duty of his brother to take the widow as his wife, either to provide for her or to carry on the family name, etc.?

3,455 posted on 03/11/2006 5:51:22 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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