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To: jo kus
So God only protected the first generation from error?

FK: In a word, YES. :)

Where exactly does the Scripture even IMPLY that? This sounds like another man-made tradition that keeps men away from God...

It's not so much that scripture says this, but it doesn't support your position either. We both know the Bible has plenty of verses that warn us to beware of those who come and teach error. I am not asserting that those verses are directed at Catholics! :) I am saying how can we know who they are talking about? I would attempt to know by measuring any teaching against the Bible.

In the end, it comes down to authority, I suppose. Who do we believe has given us "God's Word"?

I agree with you.

Do you agree that God could have chosen "perfect" men, men of supreme skill and ability, sinless in every way, to be His corridor of passing His Word to others?

If I am following you, then I would agree with you in answering 'no'.

There is plenty of Scriptural evidence to suggest that "the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth". Either we believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding a group of men to interpret God's Word when called upon to do so (during heresy), or we have NO CLUE on what God has taught as His Word.

So, God is not the pillar and foundation of the Truth? There are verses that say this? I don't agree with your either-or scenario. You are saying it is either your system, with your people, or there is chaos. That's not true, God gives us His word. Sure, there are some who misinterpret it, and they will have to answer for it someday. That is fine with me. I don't believe that popularity equals truth.

When if every Christian was Protestant? And when if someone asked "Is baptism necessary for salvation?" THIS IS A CRITICAL QUESTION! Protestantism CANNOT answer this simple question.

You are right in that some would be wrong. :) But, as I said before, I don't see baptism as necessarily critical. Faith is what is critical. I can't say I know for sure on this, but it makes sense to me that the vast majority of those who are saved and have achieved any reasonable level of sanctification, choose to be baptized, at least if they never have been, because they know Jesus said we should be. I can't think of any people I know, whom I'm guessing are saved, who have not been baptized either as an infant or a believer, or as in my case, both :).

3,024 posted on 02/25/2006 2:46:40 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
It's not so much that scripture says this, but it doesn't support your position (that God intended that His Church would be protected beyond the first generation) either.

Frankly, I find that illogical. Why would God ensure ONLY the first generation was infallibly teaching Christ's Gospel AT ALL if He didn't intend to ALWAYS protect it???

Are you saying that Paul wrote that "...the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15) ONLY while HE was alive??? God would have the Church as the pillar of truth only for some 30 years! There is no evidence of that ANYWHERE in the Scriptures, or the writings of ANYONE who came after the first generation! Tell me, why would God only protect the first generation? Don't you think He would want the second generation to have the Truth - by which we are set free??? Are we to believe that God only preached the Gospel unadultered to the very first generation? I can see why Protestantism is so confused...

I would attempt to know by measuring any teaching against the Bible.

Does the Bible ever make itself as the measuring stick of what we believe?

So, God is not the pillar and foundation of the Truth? There are verses that say this?

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

I am not saying that God is not TRUTH. But His Church is for us, for us humans here in the visible world, the pillar and foundation of the truth. Without it, we wander between various doctrines that happen to tickle our ears. Men's intellect is clouded. We NEED the Church, an INFALLIBLE guide, to tell us what Christ taught and objectively so. In the visible world, Christ acts through His Church. Whether He is ministering to people through the ministry of Reconciliation, whether He is healing them of their spiritual wounds, whether He is giving "birth" to them by being "born from above", whether He is sharing of His total self to us through the Eucharist, or whether He is giving us the Truth - the preachings given to the Apostles that have found their way to us.

I don't believe that popularity equals truth.

Since when did being Catholic equate to being "popular"? But that is to be expected, as Christ said that His Church would suffer, just as He did.

But, as I said before, I don't see baptism as necessarily critical.

That is YOUR opinion. You are not infallible, and you would certainly admit that you might be wrong. IF you can be wrong, how can you KNOW you even are "saved"? Christ didn't leave us orphaned. He gave us an infallible guide to KNOW what He left us. The Truth. We KNOW Christ's teachings. (well, "we" don't, but the Church teaches it to those willing to know it). WE are certain that Baptism IS critical for salvation. The early Church who heard the words of the Apostles testify to its necessity - both inside and outside of Scripture, regardless of your opinion.

The problem with your means of coming to Scripture is that you rely totally on your OWN knowledge - what you come to rationalize and what you come across as you read. Did God really intend that we stumble across His teacings, some of them being correct, others not? Did God intend that men have a Master's Degree in Scripture exegesis? To be able to speak the original languages? Hardly. This is a works salvation, brother. You are relying on your own ability to know God's Truth, rather than rely on the Spirit guiding His Church to bring us to all truths.

Faith is what is critical. I can't say I know for sure on this, but it makes sense to me that the vast majority of those who are saved and have achieved any reasonable level of sanctification, choose to be baptized, at least if they never have been, because they know Jesus said we should be

The vast majority of Jews were circumcised into the People of God at the age of eight days. Jesus said "do not keep the little ones away from me". But that is what you do by making your own faith the only means by which we come to God. You are saying that one must EARN God's salvation by believing enough. If you don't believe enough, then your sinner's prayer didn't "take" and your salvation was never accomplished. I find this an interesting turning of the tables...Correct me if I am wrong, brother, but aren't you saying that unless one has enough faith, one cannot come to God? But faith is entirely a gift!

No, God has given His salvation freely to people. For nearly 2000 years, the vast majority of God's people first came into His presence as infants. The Jews understood this concept of "free gift"! The baby did nothing to earn salvation. The parents and community stood in proxy for the infant - promising to raise the child in the faith. Christianity merely continued this with infant baptism.

I can't think of any people I know, whom I'm guessing are saved, who have not been baptized either as an infant or a believer, or as in my case, both :).

God works through the ritual of Baptism, as He promised that He would, as prefigured by Christ's own baptism.

Regards

3,029 posted on 02/25/2006 8:10:14 PM PST by jo kus
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