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To: Agrarian; kosta50; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; jo kus; annalex
It [Catholic view of Immaculate Conception] thus teaches that Mary was born without original sin of any kind and furthermore was specially filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of her conception -- filled with so much grace that she had and has "extra" grace that she can dispense to the rest of us if we pray to her and ask for it, etc. The Orthodox Church does not accept this teaching.

MARY BESTOWS GRACE!? And to think that priests forgiving sins made me crazy. :) I thought you prayed to Mary for a prayer, not to be given something from her on her own authority.

This view also appears to disagree with the Protoevangelism of James that I was kindly shown earlier. What do you say about the grace Mary was shown at three years old?

What we do believe is that from the earliest moments of cognition in her life, Mary chose to turn her face toward God.

You said that Mary was conceived and born in the normal way. Also, you said that she was given special grace at conception, which must be what makes it immaculate. You later say that it was always possible for Mary to sin, but from her first moment of cognition she chose not to sin. I am sure you are familiar with children and their propensity to always choose never to sin. :)

What I'm leading to is that if Mary was always subject to sin, but never chose to even as a child, then how could that not be the act of God controlling her? Mary could not have had a free will and chosen to never sin, even with her super grace. The super grace must have overwhelmed her, else she would not have been human. Adam and Eve were also presumably not born with the sin nature, yet Mary beat them both out. What was the only difference? Super grace. How can you say that she used free will? On your terms, Adam used his free will, and we all know what happened.

2,934 posted on 02/22/2006 10:30:49 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; jo kus; annalex
MARY BESTOWS GRACE!?

FK, Agrarian is Orthodox, so he can't answer your questions, but our Latin friends can. As Agrarian stated, the Orthodox do not believe that BEV Mary can bestow grace.

Your comments about contradiction as far as Theotokos is concerned is a mix of what the Orthodox and the Catholic believe as reards to her. This is one area where the Orthodox and Catholic Churches disagree.

2,941 posted on 02/23/2006 3:28:06 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper

"And to think that priests forgiving sins made me crazy. :)"

Orthodox don't believe that priests of themselves forgive sin either! (nor do Roman Catholics so far as I know)


2,942 posted on 02/23/2006 3:31:37 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; kosta50; Kolokotronis; annalex
MARY BESTOWS GRACE!? And to think that priests forgiving sins made me crazy. :) I thought you prayed to Mary for a prayer, not to be given something from her on her own authority.

That is not a dogmatically defined teaching of the Catholic Church. This is based, however, on a consistent teaching that Mary is the conduit of grace through whom Christ grants all graces. Mary HERSELF doesn't possess God-like abilities in of herself. As she was the means and instrument by which God gave us the greatest of graces, Jesus Christ, we believe that God continues to act in such manner in this new dispensation to continue to grant mankind grace and specifically, His Church, "through" Mary. We regard Mary as a symbol of the Church (Rev 12, for example) and just as the Church dispenses Christ's redemptive graces to us, we believe that Mary is the co-metiatrix of Christ's graces. If Jesus is the Head and we are the Body of Christ, then Mary would be the Neck...

This is a teaching that goes back at least 1500 years - but has not been infallibly defined yet. By the way, the Protoevangelism of James is not considered Scripture, so it would be difficult to base infallible beliefs upon it (that Mary didn't receive special graces until she was three).

What I'm leading to is that if Mary was always subject to sin, but never chose to even as a child, then how could that not be the act of God controlling her?

God gave Mary a singular grace that allowed her to freely avoid sin. By being conceived immaculately, she was born without concupiscence. Thus, she, like Christ, could not be tempted from within - only from without (Satan). Being that Mary, the Woman of Gen 3:15, was in complete enimity with the devil, it doesn't seem possible that God would even ALLOW Mary to sin. He provided for His greatest creation, fear not...Just because a person has been given such a grace - to be so enlightened to NOT choose sin - doesn't make her free will non-existent.

Regards

2,949 posted on 02/23/2006 4:25:00 AM PST by jo kus
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To: Forest Keeper; Agrarian; kosta50; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; jo kus

I believe that, as usual, Jo Kus correctly described the Catholic theology regarding Mary in relations with grace in his 2949, and in forgiveness of sins by priests in his 2,953.


2,957 posted on 02/23/2006 7:49:46 AM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper

"Also, you said that she was given special grace at conception, which must be what makes it immaculate."

As Kosta pointed out, you have mixed up Orthodox and Catholic teaching on some points. This statement is Catholic dogma, not Orthodox.


2,968 posted on 02/23/2006 8:15:28 PM PST by Agrarian
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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; jo kus; Agrarian; kosta50

Apropos of your comments on the Theotokos, here's a link to the Doxastikon of Matins for this coming Sunday, the Sunday of the Last Judgment. Its about her and expresses a bit of Orthodox theology/Mariology. Its a real audio link and the chant is in English:

http://realserver.goarch.org/ram/en/Doxastikon-LastJudgement.ram


2,995 posted on 02/24/2006 4:59:51 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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