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To: Forest Keeper

"However, no one is going to argue that all are saved."

Origen did and got anathemized for it!

"So, I'm guessing that to reconcile verses like these with the fact that only the elect are saved, we say that what Christ did was sufficient for all to have been saved, had God chosen all. Since God only saves the elect, the cross is only effectual for the elect."

So much of this "election" or "elect" business comes from the OT. Do you suppose that just perhaps the verses you quoted or similar ones found throughout the NT, actually demonstrate that with the Incarnation, election isn't limited to the Jews, but rather extends, potentially, to all of the New Israel? In other words, that the use of the terms elect or election really only refer to the Jews under the Old Testament and to potentially everyone under the New? That pretty clearly makes the readings consistent, does it not?


2,849 posted on 02/20/2006 2:49:35 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; HarleyD; jo kus; kosta50
So much of this "election" or "elect" business comes from the OT. Do you suppose that just perhaps the verses you quoted or similar ones found throughout the NT, actually demonstrate that with the Incarnation, election isn't limited to the Jews, but rather extends, potentially, to all of the New Israel? In other words, that the use of the terms elect or election really only refer to the Jews under the Old Testament and to potentially everyone under the New? That pretty clearly makes the readings consistent, does it not?

Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I think I'd have to say 'no'. The question seems to be "were non-Jews saved in the OT"? Since Abraham was the first Jew, then what about those before him? I don't think we can call Adam and Eve "Jews", but I think most agree that they were saved. I found this verse about Abel:

Heb. 11:4 : By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

So, it seems that faith trumps heritage in the OT as well as in the NT. Paul makes a distinction between "Israel" as a heritage and the spiritual "Israel". He also references election.:

Rom. 9:6-13 : 6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

So, even though Esau had the right lineage, he was not of the elect. And, this was decided before the twins were even born.

2,901 posted on 02/22/2006 11:04:31 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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