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"To be honest, I really don't know what the theology is on whether Adam and Eve eventually wound up in heaven or not, but I would like to know. My "guess" would be that they are both in heaven because God showed mercy on them by kicking them out of the garden, lest they should again partake of the fruit of the tree. God saved them from themselves. What does your side say?"

Your honesty, FK is appreciated! Indeed, it is the theology of The Church that Adam and Eve are in heaven, having been released from hades by Christ Himself as is shown in the icon of the Resurrection:

Your comment raise several intersting points. Initially, we have the whole question of the purpose of the Incarnation. Why did God become Man and dwell among us? Why did he have to die? Why did He have to descend to hades, the abode of the dead, break the bonds of the Evil One and free the souls of the righteous dead? Why did He rise on Great and Holy Pascha? Was it part of some divine farce, a show put on to entertain God? That's what predestination and a denial of free will would seem to require one to believe. If we have nothing at all to do with our own damnation or salvation, or if all we have to do since the greatest event in the history of the world is say the "sinner's prayer" and we're "in", then the conclusion is inescapable that God is a great impressario putting on shows for His own entertainment and reall nothing more. But The Church doesn't teach that at all. +John says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The whole world, FK, not just the "elect", assuming even for a moment that the sins of the "elect" need atonement which seems, well, a bit of a contradiction.

You say that God showed His mercy by kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden "lest they should partake of the fruit of the tree". This is indeed correct, but do you know why? Here's what +John Chrysostomos says:

"Partaking of the tree, the man and woman became liable to death and subject to the future needs of the body. Adam was no longer permitted to remain in the Garden, and was bidden to leave, a move by which God showed His love for him. He had become mortal, and lest he presume to eat further from the tree which promised an endless life of continuous sinning, he was expelled from the Garden as a mark of divine solicitude, not of necessity." Hom. in Gen XVIII, 3.

But they still died, didn't they? The tree didn't have death in it; it only had good in it.

The tree of knowledge itself was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree that had death in it, as some think, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone; but knowledge is good when one uses it properly." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus

"The tree did not engender death, for God did not create death; but death was the consequence of disobedience." St. John Damascene Homily on Holy Saturday

I wish I had more time to read St John Chrysostom. Wonderful explanation on Adam's removal from the Garden.

Thanks again for the Father's quotes.

I recall that it is a teaching of the Fathers that Christ, upon His descent into Hades, first went to Adam to bring him to heaven with him...

Brother in Chrsit

[In your list of rhetorical questions:] Why did He have to descend to hades, the abode of the dead, break the bonds of the Evil One and free the souls of the righteous dead?

It's funny, my worm can opener was sitting quietly on a shelf just a few feet away from me until just after I read this. Then it started vibrating uncontrollably, even though it wasn't plugged in! :) So, I'll just ask, what is the deal with Jesus going down into Hades, and is Hades the same as Hell? Is there any scriptural support for this?

[In the same list:] Why did He [Jesus] rise on Great and Holy Pascha? Was it part of some divine farce, a show put on to entertain God? That's what predestination and a denial of free will would seem to require one to believe. If we have nothing at all to do with our own damnation or salvation, or if all we have to do since the greatest event in the history of the world is say the "sinner's prayer" and we're "in", then the conclusion is inescapable that God is a great impressario putting on shows for His own entertainment and really nothing more. But The Church doesn't teach that at all.

Why does predestination imply a divine farce? I read your explanation, but it doesn't make sense to me. On temporal physics I think it was Kosta who gave us the image of God standing on a mountain top, looking down and around the mountain, and seeing all time occur simultaneously. I have no problem with this.

I have questioned before that if God already knows everything that is going to happen, as we experience time, then why does He bother to get out of bed in the morning? How boring. The answer is that I have no idea and I am sure that I could not comprehend the true answer. I am saying it is the same with predestination. If I am paraphrasing Kosta correctly then God does not wait around to see what will happen with our "free will" decisions. He already knows, so that appears to shoot the theory of God putting on any "shows". We just can't know what God's motives are for the way He ordered the universe.

+John says:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The whole world, FK, not just the "elect", assuming even for a moment that the sins of the "elect" need atonement which seems, well, a bit of a contradiction.

I would agree that the sacrifice that Jesus made was sufficient to save all of mankind, but it was only efficacious to the elect. Why wouldn't the sins of the elect need atonement? I would say they do. I also say that God will make sure that it happens. :)

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Thanks for the quote from +John Chrysostomos on Adam and Eve being banished from the garden. I really was just guessing, so it's nice to see I wasn't pulling something out of my, ... umm ... ear. :)

The tree of knowledge itself was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree that had death in it, as some think, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone; but knowledge is good when one uses it properly.

That sounds reasonable to me. I'm not aware of a teaching which says that death was in the tree.