Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: kosta50
FK: "Even worse, you say that God doesn't particularly care which of us goes to heaven."

No, not particularly, He doesn't care for some. He cares for all. Sun shines on all, equally. But if some choose to shut their eyes or hide from it, the Sun will not force their eyes open or pull them out of their dark hiding places! They all know the Sun is out there, whether they like it or not. It's their choice to be in its light or to shun away from it.

OK, just so I understand you: You say God cares for all, equally. If God cares for all equally, then He must offer His grace to all equally, is that right? Then, after that, some choose Christ and some do not, all of whom know that "the Sun is out there". (I know what you mean.) Therefore, if God doesn't particularly care which of us makes whatever choice, as you said, and if God treats us all equally, then how is this not a man-determined salvation?

From what you said, we choose, we determine, if everything else is equal to God. You say that God makes the same offer to us all, but the determinative factor is what our response to it is, by our free will. I know that you don't believe that man has the power to save himself, but here you believe that ultimate salvation is based on the decision of the individual to accept or reject. AND, that God just takes it in stride. It sounds like you are saying that God sits back and waits to see who chose wisely. Is this right?

2,285 posted on 02/04/2006 8:14:58 AM PST by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2239 | View Replies ]


To: Forest Keeper
I know that you don't believe that man has the power to save himself, but here you believe that ultimate salvation is based on the decision of the individual to accept or reject

It's a process, not an instantanous event. It involves a lot of steps, the first one comes from God. If we accept His grace, we can only follow Christ. The only other choice is no longer valid. We don't have but two choices and one is a sure loss!

Christ is our Shepard. He provides the light that illuminates the way to the truth; He is the Truth, the Light and the Way. If we are to re-acquire the likeness of God that was lost with Adam, we must follow Chirst. Who else can we follow? Therefore, it is not your own doing, and by following Him we hope to attain salvation -- i.e. we hope that our hearts will change and that at the moment of our death we will have some similitude to Him to be saved.

The heart is changed when we accept Christ. But our nature requires that it be actively maintained, lest it slips back. It's a cooperative process, with God leading and us following, willingly in both cases. For only those spiritually blinded can choose evil over God, the corruptable, over incorruptable, things that shall pass over eternal life with God.

God is the driver, but we have to step on that bus, FK!

2,287 posted on 02/04/2006 10:38:09 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2285 | View Replies ]

To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis
You say that God makes the same offer to us all, but the determinative factor is what our response to it is, by our free will.

You know, the Bible is full of examples where God allows us to run our own destinies and exercise our corrupt, but free will. Take, for instance, Genesis 6:3

and then later on (6:5-7)

Doesn't sound like He was much in control there, does it? Nor does it sound like that was His plan. Obviously, there is more to this then to conclude that God was surprised, but it is clear that He had a change of heart and wanted to destroy that which He originally created.

But out of love for humanity, and because of the few just among us (in a Hebraic sense of "just"), He gave man a second chance (and many more since then). He then revealed Himself to the Hebrews and made a Covenant with Israel, the people of God. But the people of God betrayed His love over and over and made His Covenant corrupt once more.

And then He made a Second Covenant, that made the first obsolete as we learn in (Heb 8:7), which quotes the Old Testament:

as St. Paul concludes (Heb 8:13)

So, obviously what we do on earth does affect our salvation. That certainly does not mean that we are passive riders on His conveyor belt, where he placed some on one and others on the other belt, and now some destined to salvation and other to perdition.

From these verses, none of this seems scripted and pre-ordained. What happens to us in this world, in this time-space bubble outside of the eternal continuum, is our dominion and God helps and even sacrifices Himself for us when we are in dire straits, but He gave us life to live and to come to the Truth on our own with His unceasing help and blessings.

What happens in this space-time bubble of our world does not affect His will and desire to see man in Paradise, because, although He would prefer that all be saved, He does not force all to be saved; thus, no doubt some will end up there and some won't, and some are there already. But those who are or who are on their way way are the elect because they willingly followed the footsteps of our Savior, and not because they were made to do so. When +Paul says we were predestined to be saved, he simply knew what their free choices will be; it doesn't mean He actively "put a spell" on them. :-)

2,307 posted on 02/05/2006 5:32:20 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2285 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson