Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Unlike the thief, whose sins were remitted moments before his death, most of us leave this life with a baggage of unrepented sins.

Not only sins, but as our Eastern brothers would agree, our theosis is incomplete for most of us before our death. Really, will a prideful Joe go right to the Father and share fully as meant by the Lord in His divine nature upon his death? I really doubt he would WANT to, upon seeing the holiness of God "face to face". We will recognize, to our shame, how much we need Purgatory, God's last great mercy offered to His creation.

Only a Reformed would think that simply by mumbling "Lord, Lord" one can enter unclean into the Kingdom of God.

Your thinking of the other Protestants, Kosta. The Reformed group don't even have to do that much, apparently...

Regards

Heresies simply forced the Church to spell out what it was that the Church disagreed with and why. But the knowledge of the "why" was there all along. Thus, when Aries started to teach that Chrust was a "lesser" God than the Father, that He was a "creature," the Church knew that was wrong.

Of course! I think it is like a gold mine. Christ gave us a gold mine and it is up to the Church to explore its depths. The profoundness of our faith, I believe, still has much to bring forth. I believe there is enough about God that we still do not know about - by definition - but "know" through our liturgy or practice (and not by theological definitions). However, such knowledge remains "hidden", in a manner of speaking, because we haven't reflected on certain things in a certain way. For example, it is only recently that Catholics, led by St. Maximillian Kolbe, have meditated on the relationship between the Holy Spirit and Mary in that moment of union that brought about the Incarnation. I believe it is something the Church "knew" about in its heart and soul through its Liturgy, but has never really cataloged and defined it.

I think this is how doctrine develops. I think it is in retrospect that we can say something was "Apostolic".

The filioque was used to convince the Arians that Christ was co-substantial with the Father and not because the Creed was "incomplet" or "wrong."

Actually, the filioque came after Chalcedon - which is why the Greeks disapprove of what they see as a twisting of Leo the Great's Tome... It was 2 Spanish bishops with adoptionist leanings that the Western Church was combating. I have no problem with agreeing with Pelikan's assertion that Latin is not so clear as Greek in noting the distinctions between the theological procession and the economic procession of the Spirit. I have found that Western Fathers did not make that distinction, while it appears that Eastern Fathers, such as the Cappodocians did. What is interesting is that the Syrians propose that Greek is not clear enough in defining hypostasis! Ah, language! But it now makes more sense to me on the disagreement between the Eastern and Western view of the Trinitarian procession of the Spirit.

As for iconoclast heresy, the early documentation shows that the Church as far back to the Apostolic times used pictures of holy people, and that none of the Cappadocian Fathers found it objectionable as neither did any of the Church Fathers before or after them.

There is quotations from the Church Fathers who are disdainful of icons and statues, because they see it as a return to paganism. Reading such quotes from the Fathers superficially, one could come up with the idea that the Fathers were AGAINST icons. Naturally, the Iconoclasts used such verses in their apologetics. It took more than proof-texting of the Fathers to get to where we are at today. It came down to our definitions of Christ which clinched the deal for icons and statues. And of course, as usual, the West was behind the East (in other words, slower) on such matters, because there was no problem to fight against on such matters...

St. John the Damascene defeated iconoclastic movement using the existing knowledge of faith and not adding to it.

I agree. And it is interesting that his writings are more beloved in the West than the East! The trick is trying to determine what the Fathers meant when they wrote such and such. I am only saying that the Fathers were not unanimous on the issue, when looking at this tradition from a literal sense. There was concern that such practices could lead to a return of idolatry or a return to the Jewish practice of worshiping in a particular "place". Later Fathers clarified what was meant and the practice was verified and condoned. Please don't think I am saying that the Church was wrong regarding Icons! Heavens no! I have one (Christ Pantacrator) next to my prayer chair!

Regards

Dr. E, in Bonhoeffer's Biblical Study, Creation and Fall, he writes about The Beginning, he states the following in terms of where man finds himself:

"The Beginning can only be spoken of by those in the middle and are anxious about the beginning and the end, by those who are tearing at their chains, by those -to anticipate something we shall discuss later- who only in their sin know they are created by God."

I learned not so long ago, that way back who knows when (and I don't know who to credit for it), when someone posed the question what was God doing before the Creation?, the reply was, building Hell for the curious. I don't believe the curious referred to here are those who in true humility seek to know God in the way a theologian might, or seek to help others know Him in the same way or at some sort of same level, but those who pretend to know what cannot be known by the Creature and is only known by the Creator.

I'm woefully ignorant of Scripture, and because of this I'm shy about using it for fear of abusing it. However, there are certain passages in which the tone of voice of the writer conveys something much deeper to me. A good example of this is St. Paul's oh so beautiful teaching on Love:

1Cr 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Cr 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Cr 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Cr 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Cr 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cr 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Cr 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

Who can grow tired of reading this? Who can say that this is who they are? Nobody! And I think that's what Calvin was getting at when he spoke of Total Depravity. No matter how much we try to be Christ-like, we fail and we fail everyday, and that's everybody. No man is excluded.

I had an interest in monastic life when I was a kid, because my second-grade Nun entered a cloistered order the following year. As I began to read more about this, I picked up the sense that monastics had a tendency towards misanthropy, and that the monastic life presented as a refuge from man.

I mention this because I believe that St. Paul's ad alta voce advance of the Salvation that is Christ's Sacrifice, is rooted in whatever is the direct opposite of misanthropy.

Really, will a prideful Joe go right to the Father and share fully as meant by the Lord in His divine nature upon his death? I really doubt he would WANT to, upon seeing the holiness of God "face to face".

Hmmm....and how long will a person be in purgatory? Are the 5,150 saints out of purgatory now and in heaven?

As William Webster explains in The Church of Rome at the Bar of History (Carlisle, Pennsylvania: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1995):

For at least the first two centuries there was no mention of purgatory in the Church. In all the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr there is not the slightest allusion to the idea of purgatory. Rome claims that the early Church nevertheless believed in purgatory because it prayed for the dead. This was becoming a common practice by the beginning of the third century but it does not, in itself, prove that the early Church believed in the existence of a purgatory. The written prayers which have survived, and the evidence from the catacombs and burial inscriptions indicate that the early Church viewed deceased Christians as residing in peace and happiness and the prayers offered were for them to have a greater experience of these. As early as Tertullian, in the late second and beginning of the third century, these prayers often use the Latin term refrigerium as a request of God on behalf of departed Christians, a term which means 'refreshment' or 'to refresh' and came to embody the concept of heavenly happiness. So the fact that the early Church prayed for the dead does not support the teaching of purgatory for the nature of the prayers themselves indicate the Church did not view the dead as residing in a place of suffering. (p. 114)

Though Catholic apologists often quote men like Tertullian and Origen referring to something resembling Purgatory, what they believed in was only an early form of the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, which would still take centuries longer to develop into what it is today. The earliest post-apostolic writers, who predate Tertullian and Origen by about a hundred years or more, had no concept of a Purgatory.

Clement of Rome, the earliest of the church fathers, writes about Peter, Paul, and some deceased Corinthian presbyters being in Heaven:

"Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him....Thus was he [Paul] removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience....Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure from this world; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them." (First Clement, 5, 44)

Papias, a Christian of the late first and early second centuries, wrote concerning Christians and the afterlife:

"As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, 'In my Father's house are many mansions:' for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, 'For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.' For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. 'But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.'" (Fragments, 5)

Papias refers to different degrees of reward in Heaven (1 Corinthians 3:11-15), but says nothing of Christians suffering in Purgatory.

Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, wrote:

"I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as ye have seen set before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. This do in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are now in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead." (The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, 9)

When Polycarp died as a martyr, an account of his martyrdom was written and circulated among the churches afterward, part of which reads:

"For, having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he now, with the apostles and all the righteous in heaven, rejoicingly glorifies God" (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 19)

Catholic apologists may attempt to avoid the implications of these comments by suggesting that these people were viewed as going right to Heaven only because they died as martyrs. However, the concept that martyrs would not have to go to Purgatory is a later concept, one which we can't read back into the writings of this time. And not all of the people mentioned in the comments above died as martyrs anyway. The earliest post-apostolic Christians, like the apostolic Christians, did not believe in a Purgatory.

And I think that's what Calvin was getting at when he spoke of Total Depravity. No matter how much we try to be Christ-like, we fail and we fail everyday, and that's everybody. No man is excluded.

Amen. I'm constantly reminded of this just simply standing around. When my mind is at rest is when I get the most awfulest thoughts; "What would happen if....". It only serves to remind me of how depraved I am. As God stated:

Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

In my mind there is not a lot of wiggle room for the condition of man.

A person who has been sent to Purgatory is already saved on account of the mercy of God and the Works of Jesus Christ the Redeemer. You should know better that we don't believe that anything we do earn salvation.

But if Christ has paid the price for your sin, then what the Hell are you doing in Purgatory?

Luke 10:38-42

As they continued their journey he entered a village where a woman whose name was Martha welcomed him.

She had a sister named Mary (who) sat beside the Lord at his feet listening to him speak.

Martha, burdened with much serving, came to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me."

The Lord said to her in reply, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and worried about many things.

There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her."

that's the monastic life.

Kosta, your 8393 requires no "quality control." I think you put it all very accurately and beautifully.

It is really hard to describe exactly the difference between Catholic and Orthodox approaches, but they are very real and acute in our eyes.

I think that the most important thing that you touch on is that in general, we consider theologoumena to be not a part of Orthodox tradition or belief. Truly Orthodox belief is marked by essential agreement on even the details, throughout the entirety of Orthodoxy. This includes agreement regarding what details we believe are unknowable and must remain undefined and unextrapolated because they were *never* revealed -- such as defining the "intermediate state" of the soul after death.

I do not think that the difference between our beliefs about the soul after death and the Catholic beliefs are the result of the challenge of Protestantism in the West, any more than I believe that the filioque wasn't inserted into the Creed in the East because the East didn't have a problem with Arianism! (Leaving aside the question of whether the filioque really helps combat Arianism...)

My impression of Catholicism, especially today, is that there is more an attitude of "if a belief isn't forbidden or declared to be heresy, then it is a valid and acceptable part of the Catholic tradition, as long as some Catholics believe it." There seems to be more of an attitude of a variety of extrapolated beliefs being included in Catholic tradition.

Orthodoxy, rightly or wrongly, does not believe so much in the development and extrapolation of doctrine as we do in the gradual articulation of beliefs that were held from the very beginning, without interuption, but perhaps in more inchoate form. Some would call this naive, but it is how we look at it.

So, no, it really isn't accurate to state that Orthodox Christians can choose to believe in purgatory just because it hasn't formally been declared to be off-limits. We consider that any level of going beyond what is agreed on within Orthodoxy is to stand on unstable ground, and is to be avoided.

"So, no, it really isn't accurate to state that Orthodox Christians can choose to believe in purgatory just because it hasn't formally been declared to be off-limits. We consider that any level of going beyond what is agreed on within Orthodoxy is to stand on unstable ground, and is to be avoided."

Agreed. Let me add, however, that true theologoumenna are not simply something we choose to believe which isn't a condemned heresy. Theologoumenna must be belief which are otherwise uncontradicted by the doctrines and dogma of The Church, for example, the bodily Assumption of Panagia into heaven after her death. Purgatory, however, as taught by the Latin Church, in some aspects contradicts Orthodox teaching in a number of areas and thus a belief in Purgatory by an Orthodox Christian, in my opinion, would be improper.

Do you find anywhere in scripture where Jesus warns that one's faith can be lost ... or that believers won't perform commensurate works ?

I just gave you Matthew 7:21-27 to that effect.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,

25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand,

27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

Reads to me that Jesus was emphasizing the importance of right relationship (to Him) ... as opposed to works here.

Jesus begins by proclaiming that not everyone who will mouth the words ... "Lord, Lord ... " will be a true disciple of His. He goes on to say that only those that do the will of the Father ... will enter into heaven.

And what is the will of the Father ?

Jesus makes this clear in John 6 ...
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Certainly not everyone who will claim followship of Jesus ... when He visibly comes into His kingdom ... will have true relationship with Him.

That is why these (portrayed in the passage) are claiming the works that they do ... "haven't we done this, that, and the other ... in your name."

Jesus sees their hearts and identifies them as imposters ... for they have never had a relationship with Him.
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
The remainder of the passage compares the fates of two men who had built houses on different tracts of land.

One man had built his house upon the sand ... and when the wind and waves came ... his house was destroyed.

The other (wise) had built his house upon a rock (that's Jesus) ... and when the wind and waves came ... his house stood.

In these passage, Jesus talks about faith (in Him) more than He does anything else. If you have made your connection with Jesus (i.e. built your faith upon a rock) ... your faith will stand.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
If your faith is built upon any other thing (than the Son), ... then the troubles of this life will destory it when they come.

The monastic life is the antithesis of the Christian experience. Mother Teresa lived what the cloistered only conjecture.

"But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased." -- Hebrews 13:16

In the Gospels, Jesus goes off alone to pray several times. There must be some value in it.

A Catholic would say a few things about this. First, the present state of cafeteria Catholicism in the West is aberrant. Even so, no serious Catholic would declare a hypothesis tradition merely because it is not pronounced heretical.

Second, we've got the Pope and through his office we are better equipped to develop doctrine. Now, some would of course say that this is precisely what is wrong with us, but then our entire belief in the degree of authority in the Chair of Peter needs to be addressed. This puts us in a position not enjoyed by the Orthodox: a particular doctrinal development needs to be looked at on its individual merits rather than just dismissed because it is a development. We need then to see if there is sufficient warrant in the Scripture and the Fathers to refine the doctrine of final purification. It does no suffice to merely say that because the doctrine was not sufficiently defined, say, by 5th century, then it is an invalid doctrine. And of course, we don't disagree that the Pope has no authority to go beyond the initial deposit of faith.

At this point I'll be following The Roots of Purgatory. If you prefer, stop right here and go to the entire article; I'll provide a brief summary.

Direct scriptural support is in Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32, as well as 2 Macc. 12:41–45/

It is important to differentiate the actual Catholic doctrinal belief from the popular perceptions of purgatory as a place or that the stay therein has a particular duration. The dioctrine merely states "(1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God".

Beyond that, we believe that it is clear that prayers for the dead were offered since the earliest time. some evidence is cited in the article. This really should be sufficient for our case; but there is also substantial patristic support, for example:

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord".
Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]
If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire
Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]

Those seem to offer most specific description; there are much more at the source.

Reads to me that Jesus was emphasizing the importance of right relationship (to Him) ... as opposed to works here.

There is no "as opposed". Christ expects us to build the house of faith and build a relationship with Him. That is works. It does indeed make a difference what works one did, -- not every work will do. Only work that strengthens faith will bring us into the sate of justification.

Catholicism does not teach that charitable work brings salvation in the manner of a reward; in fact, if you do your charitable work because you expect a spiritual reward, you invalidate it. But work you must, -- there is overwhelming scriptural support for this. Faith without works is dead.

Faith without works is dead.

Indeed ... genuine faith will produce commensurate works.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You're thinking of the other Protestants, Kosta. The Reformed group don't even have to do that much, apparently...

Oh, well...I give them too much credit.

Catholic apologists may attempt to avoid the implications of these comments by suggesting that these people were viewed as going right to Heaven only because they died as martyrs. However, the concept that martyrs would not have to go to Purgatory is a later concept, one which we can't read back into the writings of this time.

There is a difference between quoting the Fathers on the final destiny of those who give their lives for Christ in either martrydom or as a confessor, and the typical Christian who was neither. I am under the understanding that martyrdom was THE ultimate means of achieving heaven in the beginning days of the Church. So much so that a catechumen who was martyred was considered in heaven, even though he wasn't baptized - thus, the baptism by blood.

There are numerous quotes from writings of Christians and Church Fathers that speak of a "place of punishment" that is neither heaven nor hell, Harley. Here are some interesting ones among the many:

"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202).

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"...and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350).

"I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370).

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

These are only some of the quotes I have found before 400 AD. It is clear that both the East and the West believed in some sort of after-death purging place. Whatever it was called then, we call it Purgatory now, a place of purging.

Regards

But if Christ has paid the price for your sin, then what the Hell are you doing in Purgatory?

I'm not in purgatory, brother...I assure you I write while my body lives.

Regards

My impression of Catholicism, especially today, is that there is more an attitude of "if a belief isn't forbidden or declared to be heresy, then it is a valid and acceptable part of the Catholic tradition, as long as some Catholics believe it."

That deos seem to be the imprfession I got. Any comments form the Latin side?

So, no, it really isn't accurate to state that Orthodox Christians can choose to believe in purgatory just because it hasn't formally been declared to be off-limits

That just about summs it up. Unless it has the concensus patrum, it is not Orthodox.

genuine faith will produce commensurate works.

On this we don't disagree. The Catholic Church calls such faith "fides formata" -- faith well formed. Where we seem to disagree that unless the faithful makes the decision to do these works in his own little head, he will lose what faith he has, because even God cannot drive a parked car. And this is the meaning of the Gospel.