Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[HarleyD]

Several reasons. First, it is an act of humility to appeal to another person for help. Do people just walk right up to the Queen of England and ask for help?

I assume the "Queen of England" in your analogy represent Christ (shouldn't that be the King of England?). Your answer still begs the question why do you even pray to Jesus? If you do sometimes and not other, why?

[jo kus]

From the section on Perseverance of the Saints

Thanks for your explanation. Apparently, the distinction is based on the view of subsequent sin after regeneration. OSAS seems to not care about sin and the possibility of it effecting one's "secured" salvation, while POTS seems to say that one has not been regenerated unless there are signs of regeneration by not being enslaved to sin. POTS doesn't require perfection, but it seems clear to me that works are part of the formula.

In a sense, I can agree and understand POTS, as Catholics believe that love and faith go together as part of the package. A person who loves has obviously been regenerated. However, this seems to me more a current status. What proves that because you are a believer today and next week, that you are working in love and so forth, that you won't fall away next year? Is the perseverance commanded by God to us, or is God Himself persevering?

I would say that God perseveres in giving us the grace WE need to persevere...

Regards

[jo kus]

I assume the "Queen of England" in your analogy represent Christ (shouldn't that be the King of England?).

Yes, the Queen is analogous to Christ in my example

Your answer still begs the question why do you even pray to Jesus? If you do sometimes and not other, why?

Because God instills within me the desire to ask Jesus' mother for favors, which instills within me a more humble attitude in coming to God in the first place.

Regards

[jo kus]

Although this doesn't directly relate to our discussion on Energy/Essence, I think it might help to clarify why I am confused... At the Chalcedon, Leo presented his Tome, declared as orthodox by the Bishops. In it, he wrote "each form [nature in the incarnate Logos] does the acts that belong to it, in communion with the other". As you may recall, orthodoxy was fighting the concept of one nature within the Hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ. In the end, the Council declared that the Incarnation had 2 natures after the union. As Leo writes above, it is the NATURE that does the acting.

The Nature, rather than the single Hypostatis (Person) of the Logos is the subject of the verb "to act". This clearly bears on our subject matter that we have been discussing. It is the NATURE, not the PERSON that is acting.

Furthermore, in subsequent questions that followed Chalcedon, the question came up "Does Jesus Christ have two wills"? Monotheletism (one will in Christ) said "the will does not pertain to the nature, but to the hypostasis". Against this, orthodoxy, as I stated above, declared that the "will pertains to the NATURE, not the PERSON."

Thus, when we look at Christ, "we confess two natural wills and two natural actions, without division, without change, without separation, without confusion". The christology of St. Leo I, cannonized at Chalcedon, required that each nature have its own will and its own action. With this in mind, I find I am hard pressed to agree on the concept that the PERSON is the source of action and that we do not come into contact with the nature (ousia) of God when He wills to act. Thus, the idea of "divine energy" - that a Person is acting "independently" of His nature (because "man and God's essence cannot touch") seems to refute the Counciliar decisions of Chalcedon and Constantinople that declare that it is the nature that acts, not the person.

Regards

[kosta50]

It is invalidated in the sense that it is not used

Whether we use or reject God's grace, His grace is always valid, jo. I am not sure what you are getting at. There is no time in our lives that we cannot turn to God. His grace is always there.

[jo kus]

Whether we use or reject God's grace, His grace is always valid, jo. I am not sure what you are getting at. There is no time in our lives that we cannot turn to God. His grace is always there.

Sorry I didn't clarify. God's grace can be refused. It is always sufficient, but man can reject that grace. It is like an un-opened Christmas present.

Regards

[kosta50]

I had thought that His Divine Nature WAS to include His Personhood. In other words, God, His nature, consists of Three Persons

That's what we know about God. We do not know His nature, the way God really "is." (the is is also a construct for our limited minds, because God does not "exist" in our created sense).

But seeing God as essence leads to a pagan God? I think that the Personhood of God can also lead to polytheism, don't you?

It can lead to paganism because we begin to associate/confuse His nature with ours. Thus, we begin to think of an "angry" God, a "vengeful" God, a passionate God, just the way we are. Western Europe underwent strong Greek pagan influence in the Age of Reason, deifying man and humanizing God, leading to a false and arrogant notion that mankind is capable of accomplishing and conquering anything.

When a group of communist Romanian officers asked Elder Cleopa, a Romanian monk, what he thought of the feat of Yuri Gagarin (first man in space), he said "nothing." Perplexed, the confronted him by saying something to the effect that we conquered space and so on...and Elder Cleopa simply replied "It's like a bee came out of the next and flew around it three times, and the rest of the world knew absolutely nothing about it."

In other words, compared to the whole Creation, man is nothing. Our only measure of divinity is ineffable and incomprehensible God, and our only measure of Man is Jesus.

We know of God through His Hypostatic revelations. One, the Word, became Incarnate, so that we may establish a loving and personal relationship with God, and never confuse our nature with His.

[kosta50]

I understand "mercy" and such as God's nature

Yes, He is Mercy; we can only be merciful. He is Love; we can only love; He is goodness; we can only be good (through Him). We can never be Love, Mercy or Goodness.

The natural and supernatural are on different planes of existence, but we believe that Creation points to God Himself, and that Creation IS analogous, though only in images and likeness, not in reality

God does not exist; He is Existence. That which exists has a beginning and the end; God doesn't. Creation is evidence of God, for without God there is nothing.

Our existence is not analogous to God's. Nothing of ours is analogous to God. Nothing we do is analogous to God's work. If we do good, it is not ours, but God's.

So if I understand you, God's Energy is like a picture or an image of His essence - and yet, at the same time - IS God?

No, we are a picture of God (when we don't sin).

God's energies proceed from His nature and therefore are divine, just as ours are human.

[kosta50]

Thus, the idea of "divine energy" - that a Person is acting "independently" of His nature (because "man and God's essence cannot touch") seems to refute the Counciliar decisions of Chalcedon and Constantinople that declare that it is the nature that acts, not the person

Now you are beginning to confuse me, jo, although your points are well taken.

Jo, I have already quoted you (#7260) St. Basil's statement (4th century) that clearly shows the Church distinguished between knowing God's energies and knowing God's essence. I am re-posting it for you:

"We know our God from His energies, but we do not claim that we can draw near His essence." (Basil, Letter 234)

St. Gregory of Nazianzos, also a Cappadocian Father in "good standing" in the Catholic Church, fully envelops the understanding expressed by St. Gregory Palamas, when he says that the "energy is the dynamic and essential activity of the nature." Thus one cannot separate energy from its nature, but the two are not one and the same. Rather it is the energy that proceeds from the nature, and not the other way around. The hypostases differ relative to each other but not to the nature, namely being divine.

St. Gregogory of Naizenzos specifically calls God's energy uncreated.To the best of my knowledge, St. John of Damascus and St. Gregory the Theologian also agreed. The nature makes itself known and accomplishes things by its energy or energies. What we see is a product but not the nature of the Creator.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Perseverance makes perfect sense simply because God commands it in His word.

Amen. There is overwhelming Scripture to the effect that God named His flock from before the foundation of the world and that He will not abandon them. Rather, He will boldly and confidently lead them to the victory which Christ won on the cross for them.

But men will always seek to control other men, and so they try to tell us that salvation is something we must do for ourselves and they can help us do it.

(Ecclesiastes 3:14) "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him."

(Isaiah 46:4) "And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you."

(John 5:24) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

(John 6:37-40) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. {38} For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. {39} And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. {40} And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

(John 6:47) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

(John 6:51) "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

(John 10:28-30) "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. {30} I and my Father are one."

(John 11:25) "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

(John 17:24) "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

(Romans 4:8) "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

(Romans 6:23) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

(Romans 8:17) "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

(Romans 8:28-39) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. {29} For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. {31} What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? {32} He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? {33} Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. {34} Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. {35} Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? {36} As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. {37} Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. {38} For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, {39} Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

(Romans 11:29) "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

(Philippians 1:6) "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

(2 Timothy 2:19) "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

(2 Timothy 4:18) "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

(Hebrews 7:25) "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

(Hebrews 10:14) "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

(1 John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

From monergism.com --

"Perseverance of the Saints does not mean "once saved always saved".   This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine.   "Once saved always saved" is more keenly given the name "Perseverance of the sinner" instead of "the saint".  For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still "persevere to the end".

  "Perseverance of the saints does not teach this.  Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation.  The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ.  God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven.  It does not mean man has a license to sin.  Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace.   They are still in sin.  Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation.  God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end."

I understand where OSAS believers are coming from and I think it's certainly a preferable doctrine than the "eghads, we're doomed unless we cough up the cash" crowd.

A sure and certain confidence in Christ's redemption of us is the gift that keeps on giving.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

[xzins]

How many posts since this thread supposedly "closed out?" :>)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Isn't it closed?

And here I thought we were alone. 8~)

[HarleyD]

I would say that God perseveres in giving us the grace WE need to persevere...

POTS would say the following:

I would say that God perseveres in giving us the grace WE need to persevere and perseverance...

[HarleyD]

Because God instills within me the desire to ask Jesus' mother for favors, which instills within me a more humble attitude in coming to God in the first place.

Why wouldn't God instill within you the desire to ask Jesus rather than asking Jesus' mother?

"Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in times of need." Heb 4:16

[HarleyD]

I tried to close this thread out around 4000 and here we are. I'm beginning to think about posting Calvin's Commentaries here. :O)

[Religion Moderator]

I was hoping the correspondents could "sum up" the thread for others who were interested. But it seems to be doing quite well.

[jo kus]

I wrote : But seeing God as essence leads to a pagan God? I think that the Personhood of God can also lead to polytheism, don't you?

You replied : It can lead to paganism because we begin to associate/confuse His nature with ours. Thus, we begin to think of an "angry" God, a "vengeful" God, a passionate God, just the way we are

I agree that an incorrect notion of God can lead to problems. But I think starting from God's Person or God's nature doesn't necessarily lead to an incorrect notion. Of course, when man sees God as a "bigger" man, it becomes more likely that we forget the Transcendant nature of Him who IS.

We know of God through His Hypostatic revelations. One, the Word, became Incarnate, so that we may establish a loving and personal relationship with God, and never confuse our nature with His.

God acts through His nature. His Personhood is distinct only in relationship to the other Persons of the Trinity. Again, the West/East approach!

Regards

[jo kus]

We are a picture of God (when we don't sin). God's energies proceed from His nature and therefore are divine, just as ours are human.

So what I think you are saying is that our actions are not "us" properly, but for God, His actions are still God ontologically? His Actions and His Nature are both God while for man, his nature and actions are separate?

Regards

[wmfights]

"Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end. John 6:37-39,..."
________________________

Interesting post, but I think he got it wrong when saying "OSAS" teaches you can go out and sin all you want. I think the distinction is that when someone is saved (once saved) the HOLY SPIRIT will seal that person and dwell in them. Thus, if you are truly SAVED the desire to sin will die over time as the HOLY SPIRIT convicts you in that sin. Due to the actions of the HOLY SPIRIT the true believer will persevere to the end (joyfully) and therefore is "Always Saved".

[AlbionGirl]

Thanks for all the Scripture, Dr. E. I'm particularly fond of Isaiah 46:4 "And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." because it causes my delight in the Fatherhood of God to rise.

I once posted to qua that I thought the history of man was the history of his dissatisfaction with God. I do think it's true, but how absolutely detestable is that? C.S. Lewis writes in the Problem of Pain that "God has paid us the intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense." That we reject him on a daily basis by the sacrilege of sin is really hard for me to take in at times.

I've been reading some of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writing about the Fall. What a profoundly moral man he was, what a great thinker he was, what a Saint he was.