Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[annalex]

God's revelation is only one theology, as there is only one God

The divine Revelation is the basis of all theologies, true and false ones, but it is not in itself a theology.

[1000 silverlings]

This thread is chock full of astounding comments but I believe yours is the choc fullest! congratulations

[HarleyD]

Yes, the Church CONFIRMS that Scripture....However, I must again say that "Scripture" was not so clear cut.

It must have been clear enough for them to confirm it.

Where FK and I disagree, however, is that a bishop would read a given writing and would recognize its orthodoxy based upon what they were taught. It wasn't the other way around.

I remember reading Iraeneus in which he stated that if a true believer heard heresy preached from the pulpit, the Holy Spirit would cause that person to cover their ears and run from the Church never to go back. (I'm not sure if he capitalized "Church".)

The Canon didn't form itself!

Let's see, 1) the scriptures were written, 2) the Church confirmed they were written, 3) no one debated they were genuine, 4) they were taught in all the Churches, 5) they were accepted as inspired. I guess they were formed when the apostles wrote them down.

[1000 silverlings]

Nor are they theology, I hear

[annalex]

Live and learn.

[1000 silverlings]

Yes, live and let live, I always say. So here is what I have "learned".

God's revelation of Himself to man and the Plan of Salvation is not theology. Theology is defined by men. There are lots of theologies, even lots of Christian ones..

The Old Testament has no relation to the New Testament, the Christian religion was invented by Paul at the council of Jerusalem. It was all good except when he tried to impose "Christian theology" into Judaism, and then it was Gnostic.

To be an object of veneration, one must be "pure", so pure that even after marrying and having children, one is still a virgin. Did I leave out anything?

[annalex]

The first is the meaning of "theology".

the·ol·o·gy (thç-ŏl'ə-jç)
n., pl. -gies.

1. The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.
2. A system or school of opinions concerning God and religious questions: Protestant theology; Jewish theology.
3. A course of specialized religious study usually at a college or seminary.

[Middle English theologie, from Old French, from Latin theologia, from Greek theologiâ : theo-, theo- + -logiâ, -logy.]

The second is a misstatement of something that Kosta may have said, so I ping him. If you want to ask me on the relationship between the Old and the New Testament, just ask, or review posts 5327, 5339, 5372, 5373, 5479 on this thread.

The third is false. We venerate many saints who were not celibate.

[annalex]

Funny, the source I copied from Google online dictionary looked fine in the Preview page.

[1000 silverlings]

lol

[kosta50]

what is the Orthodox take on whether John the Baptist was Elijah?

The Orthodox Church does not consider +John the Baptist to be Elijah. It is my understanding that the Orhodox Church holds that Elijah wll return in order to die.

[kosta50]

No Catholic worth his salt (or Orthodox, I presume) would say that we can become righteous by our own actions without Christ's abiding Spirit within us

That is correct, Jo. The Spirit move sut to do good. But in order for us to lsten to Him, we must be willing, and not compelled, to do so.

[kosta50]

We stand before God as a community of people

The ultimate revelation we have from Christ is that God is one but never alone. The Holy Trinity is an eternal loving community of Persons in one Essence that we are supposed to emulate on earth, rather than self-love that is the hallmark of human nature. (cf Mat 5:48)

[kosta50]

In no way have I ever understood Orthodoxy to teach that the Righteous of the Old Testament were in a state of torment prior to Christ's Resurrection

As you mention a little further, we "are not in our full state of humanity unless our soul and body are united." The torment of the departed is in the unnatural state of existence of the soul without the body, the restoration of which union will result in a renewed life. Until such time (Final Judgemnt), the soul will be alive in a state that is not full life as evidenced from the belief that they cannot repent. Just the fact that repentance is no longer an option wold be a torment to all the saints.

[Full Court]

he merely states that it is a mystery why Mary was betrothed while committed to celibacy.

The mystery is why you believe such baloney when the Scriptures clearly indicate otherwise.

[Full Court]

It is my understanding that the Orhodox Church holds that Elijah wll return in order to die.

Yes, Elijah will come back.

Revelation 11:3  

¶And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

[annalex]

When you gain basic literacy, call me.

[Full Court]

867-5309

[fortheDeclaration]

That Paul was suspected of Gnosticism is not my invention either and is not maligning him. He was worse than that before he converted -- he persecuted Chirstians. It also does not say that he did not become a great Christian because of his earlier beliefs and deeds. I also said that he saved Christianity from certain death. I would intentionally not go beyond that statement.

The implication was that some of his gnostic belief's (if he had them) crept into his writings.

Paul was a Pharisee, a legalist, not a philosopher.

The issue of how Calvinism has interpreted those verses that deal with election is for another thread.

Also, regarding the number of the Apostles.

There were actually more then 14, there were about 19.

But only 12 were considered the original Jewish ones, the others were to the Gentiles, including Paul, James the Lords brother (not cousin), Barnabas, Silvanus, and Timothy, Andronicus and Junias.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL!

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "Jesus felt pain, so why not Mary."

Jesus' pain was salvific. Likewise when we experience pain we apply it to our salvation in imitation of Christ. Mary, already saved, had nothing to apply in that sense.

So Mary got to skip the perseverance part? Mary could have chosen to commit mortal sin, then not ask forgiveness for it, and would still be saved? Maybe I should imitate her and not worry about any consequences of sin either.

[From SALVIFICI DOLORIS:] 19. [...] And the Apostle Paul in the Letter to the Galatians will say: "He gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age"(56), and in the First Letter to the Corinthians: "You were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body "(57). With these and similar words the witnesses of the New Covenant speak of the greatness of the Redemption, accomplished through the suffering of Christ. The Redeemer suffered in place of man and for man.

It sure "sounds" like Pope John Paul II believes that we were bought and paid for by Christ, but of course he doesn't mean that. He really means that Christ's redemptive work on the cross only has any value until the next (mortal) sin. At that moment, Christ's work becomes worthless to the sinner.

[Pope JPII:] In her [Mary], the many and intense sufferings were amassed in such an interconnected way that they were not only a proof of her unshakeable faith but also a contribution to the redemption of all.

He says that Mary's sufferings contributed to our redemption, but he doesn't say how. Mary's suffering helped to pay for my sins? I would worship anyone who paid for my sins. But you all say that you don't worship Mary. Why not?

[Pope JPII:] 26. [...] the Divine Redeemer wishes to penetrate the soul of every sufferer through the heart of his holy Mother, the first and the most exalted of all the redeemed.

If Mary was the first to be redeemed, then heaven was empty before Christ? All the faithful of the OT were rotting in purgatory until Christ?