Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
No, it does not make sense. A girl is betrothed; if she intends to marry and have marital relations, that is how she'll conceive. No need to ask any questions.
Assumption of Mary is indeed not following from this verse. Her perpetual virginity is.
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Every Christian has an angel in Heaven
Agree.
So you would agree that the angels in heaven are aware of us, yes?
The three quotes I gave you show that the priests (or if you prefer, "elders") had abilities not given laity; that the church was thought of as distinct place not suitable for eating anything but the Eucharist, even if arcghitecturally or legally it was someone's private property; and that the roles during the Church service were distinct and separated laity from the president and the deacons, -- all in direct contradiction to the Protestant mythology.
"Elder" and "priest", or "president" are incidentally all translations of "presbyteros"; one uses a similar word with a Germanic root, the other the same Greek root, and the third is the corresponding Latin.
And why exactly, is "perpetual virginity" so highly valued anyway, when God said to Adam and Eve, and all creatures, to assist in creation by giving birth?
Don't be offended, but you sound like a child who thinks his momma had sex once and it resulted in him. Mary wasn't quasi God, she was just a human, which is what she had to be for Christ to be fully human. After she had Christ, her special mission was done. After that, her life was her own. As the bible says, she lived the life of an ordinary wife and mother, she did not go to a convent and seal herself off from the world.
Amen. That vital point is overlooked in the rush to deify Mary. Her purpose was to provide the humanity of Christ.
It is a matter of historical accuracy and deepens our understanding of the economy of salvation. If you'd rather not discuss it because it doesn't seem important to you, no one is exactly forcing you.
If I'm understanding you correctly your position is that some angels are aware of some of us. Past that, maybe, maybe not.
I see. Where is it in the bible that God, or Christ will share His glory in the Plan of Salvation? When we "cast our crowns" at his feet?
Do you have a biblical reference that says differently?
Contrary to Scripture, RCs are encouraged to...
I am the last person on this earth who can explain Baptism to someone who sees it as a nominalist act. I can say, however, that your thinking mirrors that of errors that existed in the mid 4th century A.D. when some Christians delayed Baptism until their dying moment for fear of the "post-baptismal sin."
I confess not just my ignorance but my doubts (intentionally or not) every time I post something, because I can actually understand such nominalism, by clinging to rationalism.
Nevertheless, I am not a rebel. I believe that the Church speaks the truth even if I don't understand or even personally see the truth the same way at this moment as the Church did from the beginning.
Here are some of my nominalist reasons for that belief even as I lack spiritual understanding:
(1) There is Scriptural evidence that suggests that whole families were baptized.(1 Cor 1:16, Acts 11:14, or 16:15, 18:8, etc.). I am pretty sure that in those days the term "family" (familia) included the children.
(2) St. Justin Martyr, a first-century Saint, himself having been baptized as an infant/child1 (born in 69 AD), writes in Apologia 1:15 "men and women who have been Christ's disciples since childhood remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy..." It was the same Saint who taught that Baptism is Christian circumcision (and Jews perform circumcision on the 8th day after birth).
1Polycarp said "Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" as he was being martyred in 155 AD.
(3) Irenaeus (2nd century AD) stated that all who are born through Him are born again to God — infants and children..."
(4) Others, such as Origen (who says "Infants are ot be baptized for the remission of sins..." Homily on Luke 4:1) or St. Cyprian (who specifically says that Christians should not wait until the eight day to baptize their children as the Jews do for circumcision, but "as soon as [the child] is born" 1:2) expressed similar understanding.
(5) The bishops at the Council of Carthage (254 AD) specifically state that no one should hinder another person from receiving God's grace" adding "especially infants..."
(6) St. Augustine made it clear that the custom of baptizing infants was a "tradition of the apostles" De Genesi ad Literam X:39. He was adamant that "infants who die before baptism" cannot obtain remission of the original sin."
(7) Early Christian grave sites bear witness of dead infants and children who were "servants of God" or words to that effect. In the Laterna Museum an inscription dated around 200 AD says that a certain Zosimus "a believer from believers lies here having lived 2 years, 1 month 25 days."
(8) Baptism is adoption of man by Christ (St John of Damascus, Book IV, VIII:5). What he is saying basically is: there is no age limit when God may adopt us.
[There are numerous other samples from historical records that show that the Church, the clergy and the people of God, practiced and believed in infant baptism in an unbroken tradition instituted by the Apostles and carried on to this day by Apostolic Churches (Roman Catholic, Orthodox) and some Lutheran and Calvinist denominations.]
(9) There is a preponderance fathers, throughout centuries, with one sole exception (Tertullian, 2nd c. AD), who believed and defended what the Church always believed regarding infant baptism. Infant baptism was not rejected until the 16th century by Anabaptists who were condemned by the Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Lutherans alike.
(10) Let's not forget that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb (Luke 1:15).
(11) The 4th century Symbol of Faith (aka known as the Nicene Creed), in its finalized version states "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins" ( because we are all born in iniquity, i.e. fallen from God's grace).
(12) Surely, you must agree that God is not limited by our age of reason or, as Tertullian would say, our "spiritual puberty," for us to have our sins remitted by His Grace. The Church understood that from the beginning, and still does, even I.
Heb 1:4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand
I can't think of any scripture that says all angels are aware of all earth all the time, no. Maybe someone else can.
I think we have sufficient evidence to know that there is awareness, communication and interaction.
I was really just making sure I understood your reply. Thank you very much.
I'm sorry, I think you must have misunderstood me or I communicated poorly. I certainly never said we are not to worship, and I didn't say "that means pray to angels."
For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
They do what God tells them to do, not what we tell or ask them to do
That's okay, I was responding more to Dr. Eckleburg's post
Oh, sorry. I thought it was in context of our discussion.
My apologies..
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