Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
All of Orthodox theology contains an element of "synergia" -- God acting, inspiring, and guiding, and man cooperating.
It is clear that man does not always act in synergia with God. When St. Peter was drifting into Judaizing and teaching things that were doctrinally wrong in that regard, St. Paul confronted him on this. So had St. Peter written down those particular teachings that St. Paul confronted him on and corrected him on, they would self-evidently not have been Scriptural.
In Orthodoxy, you will generally find a "both-and" approach. St. Luke's Gospel and his writing of the Acts were both a specific response to a requested account by Theophilus *and* they were written because God wanted them to be written, and to be written in that way.
Likewise, the compiling of the Scriptures into a definitive canon is the result of the inspiration of men by God. This was both the result of the leaders of the early church realizing that they needed to expend effort and care to discern between true and false writings *and* the result of the Holy Spirit guiding that process.
This entire process is a great mystery, and the resulting Scriptures are the words of eternal life, like no other writings that ever were or ever will be again.
Jesus wasn't concerned with a little commotion. It was that the poor and reverent coming to worship at the temple were being cheated, and thus his comment that they had made his father's house into a den of thieves. To buy a bird or animal for sacrifice, one had to exchange his local money for whatever currency was used in Jerusalem. The dishonest money changers were not giving fair value in trade, and the high priest was allowing them to flourish as he received a cut.
In Martin Luther's letter to the Pope asking him to halt the practice of selling "get out of purgatory passes", there is the distinct implication that the Pope allowed it.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6
You know, Agrarian, people learn something even, and especially, when they disagree. Just as loving those who love you is no accomplishment, tapping each other on the back because we agree is no effort either. It's a feel-good self satisfaction. So, I really don't understand why you always bid good bye to me other than that I have nothing to teach you even in my ignorance and even in my naivete or just curiosity.
So, I am not responding to you and others that I may have the last word, but to ask more questions. You do a good job of pointing why the Church believes that our faith is "Messianic Judaism," the same faith of the Prophets and OT saints, but you do not tell me why did Christ establish a church and not a synagogue; why did He establish His own royal priesthood? Did he give up on His own? He didn't seek followers among those who knew the faith of Moses, but among fishermen whom He taught true faith. Was there a single rabbi or priest who followed Him? is this not our argument to discredit Martin Luther -- that there was not a single bishop who joined him? Why did the Church develop worship that does not resemble that of the synagogues? Why did we stop Jewish dietary and fasting practices, and so on, if we are one and the same faith as that of the OT saints and Prophets?
If they share the same faith with us, why not then commune with Roman Catholics whose faith is a lot closer to ours than that of Moses and the Prophets? Why do we differentiate between various Christians, yet consider ourselves spiritually in communion with Moses and the prophets?
What you described in your otherwise, as always, excellent presentation is what Kolokotronis (whom I did not ping because he seems disinterested at this point in contributing to this thread)the "sporoi" or "seeds" of our faith, as anticipatory but not fully developed, something we find in many other religions.
Sacrificed animals were not eaten to the bets of my knoweldge, but i could be wrong. However, the OT also has instances where God says he doesn't want sacrified animals. At any rate, God created man to eat plants. What happened after the Fall is not the creation, but corruption.
God created us as OMNIVORES!
Oh, I knew this was coming...If God wanted us to fly, He would have given us wings...
If He didn't want us to eat meat, then why did He construct our jaws and teeth as He did?
Our jaws and teeth are really not suited to eat meat -- that's why we need our meat cooked, and we need tenderizers. Now, I think God gave us fire and tenderizers much later.
And don't forget forks and knives...
Wow! Compile, means to gather, to collect in an orderly fashion something that already exists. That is how I used the word. To FK (unintentionally I am sure), compile became "create" -- as in write, make something new which is a complete corruption of my statement, ...
You are making a distinction without a difference. I know you believe the authors of the NT are the same people I think they are. But all of those men were of the Church, right? So, my point was that to you, "the Church" both created and compiled the Bible. That is contrasted with my view that it was really God who deserved all of the credit for both the creation and the compilation of the Bible. Even after reading your entire post, you make only a one-sentence reference to God's involvement, and it was that He inspired the NT. That could mean different things.
No, we don't do that "in order" to become Christ-like; the faith converts our hearts. We grow in Chirst. We seek God to lead us, we willingly ask of Him to grant us the grace; we do so through prayer. God, in turn, gives us oportunities to put what we believe in practice.
We don't go to church so that we may be saved; we go to church to praise God, because we want to. If it is an "obligation" or if it is done to "earn points" it's for all the wrong reasons.
Leviticus lays out in great detail just who gets to eat the different cuts of meat and what is done with the rest of the animal. The Koheni and the Levites had a good thing going. It does seem like a big barbeque.
Pope Honorius I was not a heretic. He allowed heresy in Constantinople and failed in that sense, but all his statements as to the nature of Christ were and remain orthodox.
He was ex-communicated post-mortem buy the Church and cursed by the succeeding popes for many years at their installments because of what he didn't do rather that what he believed.
Mental note made. Thank you for the pointer. As for headaches, we have drugs in this century.
That is Luther's presumption. It was never Catholic teaching. He presumes that man is totally corrupt because Luther was unable to make the distinction between the natural and supernatural gifts given by God to man.
So the seal merely puts us in position to receive infused grace to overcome our beastliness.
Baptism does a lot more than that. It makes us adopted Sons of the Father in heaven, sons with an inheritance that is freely held out to us.
Regards
If you ask any rabbi, he will tell you that man does not need faith to be righteous. Righteousness is entirely attained by good works. If you lead a moral and virtuous life you are "acceptable to God." These works have to do with making the "right" choices -- what we know is morally right, and we do know what is morally right by the Commandments.
So, an atheist can be righteous in the eyes of God according to Judaism. Thus, an atheist can be a Jew. A Jew who belives in Christ as His Savior is not.
I imagine that was part of Christ's zeal for His Father's house.
In Martin Luther's letter to the Pope asking him to halt the practice of selling "get out of purgatory passes", there is the distinct implication that the Pope allowed it.
You are presuming that Luther "implied" anything of the sort. The practice was not universal, first of all, but relegated to one section of Germany. Next, Indulgences are not "get out of Purgatory passes", but rather, penance that relieves the punishment due to the temporal effects of sin. Some people could fast, others would pray, and others would give alms, to each their accord and position in life - given to them by God, no doubt. In any case, they are witness to the sorrow and contrition of the penitent. Were there abuses? Certainly. Was Luther correct in bringing the attention of this to the Pope? Sure. Was this a reason to leave the Church established by Christ? No.
Regards
That is spot on. Salvation is not something we go "shopping" for in a church. We don't say, I will light 5 candles and "earn" five "points".
Hebrews 9, 10, 11 is the NT. How does that show 'the same faith' established by Jesus Christ?
"Was there a single rabbi or priest who followed Him?"
In John 3 Nicodemus is referred to as a teacher of Israel. It is the same Greek word used of Jesus in the same passage. He and Joseph of Arimathea were members of the Sanhedron.
At the Pentecost, the Holy Spirit sent by the Father, through the Son, to the Apostles did not bring the book of the New Testament for eveyrone to tote around. No one had the neatly printed Evangelium with Christ's words printed in red and cross-referenced to select OT verses. All they had was the faith and understaniding of the truth given to them by the Holy Spirit without words or letters.
Thanks for the Calvin links. I will gladly read them.
"No one had the neatly printed Evangelium with Christ's words printed in red and cross-referenced to select OT verses"
It was written on their hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father and Jesus.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
IQ: As it turns out, that was not the case. It took several hundred years to settle on the canon.
I made that very clear in my post on the compilation of the NT.
the Church is not a disembodied spirit, it is the Body of Christ present on earth. Christ founded only one Church that had a defined leadership
Exactly. Every church (as a building) under a bishop provides fullness of faith and sacraments, regardless of size or location. Individual churches are not "body parts," but one and the same Organism.
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