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To: kosta50

I think I was trying to say they retained a belief in the concept, but let's not be Donatists here and say the worthiness of the minister removes the grace from the sacred mysteries.

I think Orthodoxy has a wide variety of theories regarding the
efficaciousness of non-Orthodox sacred mysteries: ranging from the neo-Cyprianists to those who believe in St. Augustine's belief that heretical mysteries could be valid.


53 posted on 10/13/2005 7:16:04 AM PDT by JohnRoss (We need a real conservative in 2008)
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To: JohnRoss

JR, the Lutherans went on a rampage imprisoning, torturing and killing bishops who did not submit to their view. The Lutherans had no clear theology for a long time, and the end result was not exactly what Luther had in mind. Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople serves as a witness to how they were perceived -- and let me tell you they were not perceived as valid anything. Numbers don't make something right. Just because there are some 90 million Lutherans (of all shades) doesn't make it "right". They are not an Apostolic church. They have no Apostolic authority. Their theology denies any ecclesiastical authority (no wonder!). Luther denied any validity of the Councils. Yet they have their own set of rules and traditions that tell them how they should believe. And all along I thought all they needed was the Faith and the Bible. Syncretism leads to nothing. Luke-warm is not good.


54 posted on 10/13/2005 8:38:32 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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