Posted on 05/04/2005 7:58:31 AM PDT by pro610
Rick warren is gearing up to train a billion people,unbeknownst to many he has also been teamed up with New Age and contemplative promoter,Ken Blanchard,for some time now. According to a new biography on Rick Warren,A Life With A Purpose wrtten by George Mair,Rick Warren has solicited the services of Ken Blanchard to aid him to train leaders:"Rick taps the best and the most famous to help train church leaders to be like Jesus. he has hired Ken Blanchard...to come to saddleback to help train people how to be effective leaders."p.193
In light of knowing who Ken Blanchard is,this is shocking and devatating news for the Church!
There is countless evidence to show that Ken Blanchard sits on the New age/mystical/contemplative bandwagon.Blanchard believes in the benefits and use of mantra meditation,yoga and has no trouble borrowing from Buddism... http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/Pressreleasekenblanchard.htm
(Excerpt) Read more at lighthousetrailsresearch.com ...
That's just a bit too "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" for me, but thanks anyway.
Wasn't that written by Chief Justice Roberts?
Boy you sound just like a (FR-5th). I know because I used to be a (FR-5th). This burning in the busom feeling that you are right about everything you believe is not always the Holy Spirit.
I can attest to the fact that there are millions of (FR5th)s who are convinced beyond all doubt that what they believe is truth, but the only measure we have to determine whether what we believe is true is the sure word of scripture. That is where your Catholic tradition betrays you. You're feeling that you are right is no more reliable a measure of your correctness than it is for (FR5th)s or for Catholics or Bhuddists or whatever.
The fact that you can claim to be a Catholic and yet avoid mass and attend a protestant church is evidence to me that you are either unfamiliar with the differences that divide Catholics and Protestants or you believe that the differences are irrelevant (which apparenly puts you in the same eccumenical company with Rick Warren -- which, BTW is a LEGITIMATE criticism of Warren).
You claim that you "respect" all Christian denominations. Does that include the denominations that insist that the Catholic Church is the Beast in the book of Revelation? Does that include the denominations that claim that people who are Catholics cannot be born again? Does that include those denominations that teach that the Mass is a pagan ritual that blasphemes God by making his sacrifice insufficient and requires that it be repeated ad nauseum every Sunday all through the world? Does that include (FR5th)s? Does that include Jehovah's Witnesses?
It certainly doesn't include Saddleback. Is that the only denomination that you detest?
You may have the Holy Spirit in you. I can't judge that. But if He's there, I really don't think you listen to him. You are too confused in your ecclesiolgy.
On this subject you have no credibility. Join a church. Make up your mind.
Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
You just can't win with those people. ;-)
I have, P-M. I went through the "40 Days of Purpose" with my local congregation, both the Sunday teachings and the mid-week "Bible study" follow-up lessons. I wouldn't say it was unbiblical, but each lesson in the "40 Days of Purpose" was even shallower (if that's possible) than a "Four Spiritual Laws" pamphlet. Any criticism of Warren re out-of-context scripture quoting is dead-on-accurate. Any criticism that it's milk (or Similac, in a nod to Frumanchu) and not meat is IMO accurate as well. Maybe I'm just not the target audience. I'd like to believe that the average churchgoer is more spiritually mature and Biblically rooted than what PDL offers. Perhaps it's popularity is a sign that they're not?
The most enlightening aspect of the whole experience was how rapidly my church began discarding the material once the 41st Day of Purpose arrived.
If the PDL book gets people to come to a church where they can be exposed to the gospel, then there is nothing wrong with it being spiritual similac. The problem is when the church preaches continual spiritual similac from the pulpit after they get the new convert into the pews. That again is a legitimate criticism of Warren's church, if in fact that is what happens. But it is my understanding that at Warren's church the spiritual meat is fed in small group bible studies which is, IMO, more akin to the way that the early church members were fed.
Agreed Alex. I've said all along they're not "deep" but they're also not "heresy."
And I think you've nailed in on the popularity. PDL fills a void in the church and that's why it's been popular. Shame on the church that the void was there. But that's not Warren's fault. At least he has tried to address it.
Which only leads to an uncomfortable question....
If there are better in-context verses that could illustrate the same points, why didn't Warren use them in his book? IMO the only acceptable answer is this: Warren isn't as biblically literate as we'd like to think he is.
Spotting "New Age" influences isn't my strong suit. But if Warren is as blonde regarding Scripture and theology as his books appear to be, I can easily believe that he'd do something as spiritually ignorant as hire Ken Blanchard to shape PDL leadership training programs. It's that approach - the seeking out of unbiblical "experts" to shape the church's next generation of leaders - that IMO makes the movement heretical, or at least opens the door for his hirelings to sow heretical seeds in his name. And Warren, being the shallow illiterate pastor that he is, appears perfectly willing to put his name behind it.
Frankly, I expect better of a pastor's judgment. The PDL movement will end up producing "burnt over districts" of ex-believers who thought there was more to Christianity, and were led astray by Warren and his PDL. If there was "deeper" meaning and material for new converts, I'd think Warren would use the profits from PDL to publish it, or at least promote it. From what I've seen in his books and on Saddleback's website, I don't Warren has any idea how to transition a milk drinker into a meat eater. Frankly, I expect more of a pastor than that.
So, you would agree that a person can have a relationship to God that is pleasing without the need to observe any external cultic forms, including the seventh day sabbath? and that a person would not be in violation of failing to observe one of Christ's commandments (John 14:15) by doing so, is that correct?
I don't believe that either Justin Martyr or Martin Luther were anti-semites per se (unless you wish to apply modern humanist definitions). I believe much of what we think of them today is colored by this same humanist age.
Absolutely correct. And you've never endeavored to show otherwise, I might add.
It's been done. Obviously not to your "solo Scriptura" satisfaction. But the church has been in conformity to the Word of God since the 1st century.
Actually, you do. You've on multiple occassions dismissed those customs, even those mandated in God's Word itself, as being "old" and "shadows" to be done away with.
Actually, no. What I said was, and what I have always said, is that as Jewish practices as social customs for Jews are fine. Of course they have no religious value since they all expired with the old covenant in the first century.
The fact remains, and which you cannot dispute, that Paul never encouraged a gentile to keep any of the cultic old covenant laws. He never mandated it, and he never evern held it out as a voluntary option. That is a fiction that your folks have invented.
In fact all we have to do is look at Acts 15 to see the reality. Here was the prefect place for the early church to spell out this theoretical "voluntary" keeping of the cultic laws by gentiles in the church. Never happened. Never mentioned. Nobody every voluntarily circumcised a gentile. Nobody every voluntarily suggested a gentile keep the cultic food laws. Nobody ever suggested that gentiles voluntarily keep the cultic sabbaths and holy days. That you cannot deny.
So what you are faced with is the fact that the quaint practices of modern messiancs are pure human tradition. Worse yet, they are human tradition filtered through centuries of rabbinic interpretation. What you as a gentile observe is no different than what you try to condemn in the ECF.
You've never been able to give me a Scriptural answer to these issues that did not fall apart under closer examination, because there is none.
Again, I don't play by your "solo Sciptura" rules, so you will obviously not be satisfied with the answers. You are you own judge and jury. That's fine as far as it goes.
The Purpose Driven Life churches are unabashed in claiming they are trying to”re-invent” the church by focusing on evangelism rather than worship. This to me is contrary to what the church “worship” service has always stood for. These PDL churches, in effect, seek to destroy (yes destroy is the correct term) the very foundation and practices which the apostles set forth. To me this is a very dangerous thing and should be closely examined. Whether it is a Catholic, a Presbyterian, a Baptist or a Pentecostal bringing up this issue doesn't matter. The issue is really one about what church service (ANY CHURCH SERVICE) is about. One thing is clear-the church was NEVER meant for evangelism. We are to go out to the harvest. Not wait for the harvest to deliver themselves to us.
While I know some of our brethren would like to insist there is nothing wrong with bringing people into the churches, the motives and methods to evangelize is based upon deceit. These PDL churches are very forthright in claiming they are catering to unbelievers’ tastes so they can get them in the doors and witness to them. Deceitful messages and practices is not what Christianity is all about. I know I'll probably get a lot of hoo-ha over this one since I can already hear the remarks "no one is deceiving anyone". Sorry, I don't buy that a minute. The purpose is to get them in the doors to share the message. This is deceit as subtle as it may be.
Finally, Rick Warren, while claiming to be driving the next Reformation, focuses primarily on social causes. In his P.E.A.C.E initiative, only one of those issues focuses on “spiritual darkness”. The other four points are nothing more than social agenda items. He doesn’t seek to help the other Christians build from within and there is not concrete plans that I can tell.
There is no doubt that Rick Warren is leading the charge to redefine "church". However, he is going against 2,000 years of tradition set forth by the apostles themselves. I doubt if they would appreciate an upstart coming in with new ideas.
BTW for all our dearly beloved dispensationalists out there-With all the Rick Warren love fest that seems to be going on these days how do you know Rick Warren isn’t the Anti-Christ? ;O)
I hereby award you fifty extra years of eternal life, for using the phrase "hoo-ha" in a Religion Forum post. Bravo!
Every word true, Harley.
One of the main reasons these mega-churches exist is because a single monolith is easier to control.
The communists knew that well enough.
Because all the dispensationalist Rick-Warren-bashers at places like Cephas Ministries and Bereancall and other sites where all this anti-Rick Warren literature is disseminated all seem to insist that the Pope is the Anti-Christ.
Scripturally, you could argue against limiting it to just one ...
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.1 John 2:18, NASB
***I know I'll probably get a lot of hoo-ha over this one since I can already hear the remarks "no one is deceiving anyone". Sorry, I don't buy that a minute. The purpose is to get them in the doors to share the message. This is deceit as subtle as it may be.***
The ends justify the means.
***BTW for all our dearly beloved dispensationalists out there-With all the Rick Warren love fest that seems to be going on these days how do you know Rick Warren isn’t the Anti-Christ? ;O)***
Because they can't be deceived.
Good "hoo-ha," BTW.
Classic dispensationalism ala CI Scofield, Clarence Larkin, Bob Jones, Jr., et al have taught that the Roman Catholic church is is whore of Babylon. Some of these older dispensationalists believed that the World Council of Churches was the vehicles to get protestants back into the RC church.
*****Scripturally, you could argue against limiting it to just one ...*****
Well, there have been a lot of popes. <+:-)
Ba-dum-bum!
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