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To: Grey Ghost II; ninenot; Salvation; sittnick; St.Chuck; Mershon; marshmallow; patent
I dare you to cite the specific language of any post of mine in which you claim that I have called mere attendance at FSSP Masses as, in and of themselves, being acts of schism. If not, I will expect your retraction of your repeated false charge against me.

I would also remind you that I was married at a Tridentine Mass authorized by the late Archbishop John Whealon in 1986 two years before Ecclesia Dei and have not been allergic to Tridentine Masses at any time in my life.

Where you are coming from seems to be from a position of justifying SSPX schismatics regardless of where you attend Mass or in what rite. Let's try a few questions in addition to the demand for substantiation or retraction.

Is SSPX a schism as noted by Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei?

Were Marcel LeFebvre and his Econe Four (illicitly consecrated bishops) excommunicated by John Paul II?

If either of the answers to the last two questions or both is in the negative, what makes you think you know better than John Paul II or that you have or have had authority over him?

I will look forward, probably in vain, to your answers to ALL FOUR questions.

129 posted on 04/13/2005 9:14:09 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
Please pardon me for answering questions you were directing to another. I think some shades of grey are allowed here.

Is SSPX a schism as noted by Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei?

Objectively, it would seem to fulfill the definition under Canon Law. However, there are enough "state of mind" exceptions carved out that we do not know if Lefebvre qualifies for the "subjective" exception. Still, I believe we should assume the objective barring overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The fact that Lefebvre originally signed a deal before backing out seems to lessen the degree of "emergency." The secondary fact that he lived for several more years (albeit in bad health) but made no move to normalize the situation reflects badly. The regular Catholic's perception of this is further muddied by the large number of priests and bishops who are in what Cardinal Ratzinger called "material schism."

Were Marcel LeFebvre and his Econe Four (illicitly consecrated bishops) excommunicated by John Paul II?

No. They were not. Pope John Paul II announced that they had incurred a latae sententiae ("self-imposed") excommunication by means of their act. That is not the same as Pope John Paul II actually excommunicating them. Personally, I would have preferred a formal decree, but that could have involved an appeal and trials and all that, and I don't think the curia wanted to get involved in that. To me, it would have made the situation a lot less ambiguous. I find latae sententiae excommunications problematic, because it is sometimes impossible to tell when they occur. For instance, a successfully-procured abortion carries with it an automatic latae sententiae excommunication. However, it turns out that at one Michigan Avenue Chicago abortion mill in the '80's, that false positive pregnancy test results were given, and "abortions" were performed in girls and women who were not even pregnant!! So, technically, though in a state of serious sin (that is acting to abort), since there was no abortion, they would not have been excommunicated.
130 posted on 04/14/2005 6:52:15 AM PDT by sittnick (There's no salvation in politics.)
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