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“Why Orthodoxy, not Rome” [for Anglicans]
Pontifications ^ | 4/04/2005 | Mark Harrison

Posted on 04/05/2005 6:39:32 PM PDT by sionnsar

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[Postscript: There are many comments to the posting. It might be worth clicking through to read them. --sionnsar]
1 posted on 04/05/2005 6:39:32 PM PDT by sionnsar
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To: ahadams2; nanetteclaret; Saint Reagan; Marauder; stan_sipple; SuzyQue; LifeofRiley; TheDean; ...
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (typically 3-7 pings/day).
This list is pinged by sionnsar and newheart.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

2 posted on 04/05/2005 6:40:01 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: Kolokotronis; FormerLib; NYer; Coleus; narses; Salvation

"Please discuss politely" ping


3 posted on 04/05/2005 6:41:41 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: sionnsar; GatorGirl; maryz; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; livius; goldenstategirl; ..
There has been a long and often close relationship between
the Anglican and Catholic Churches. In certain situations
there remains a mutual recognition of the validity of key
doctrines, liturgies, and practices. And the Catholic
Church continues to hold the faith and moral teachings as
taught by the Apostles.

I understand that there is also an Anglican Use liturgy
within the Catholic Church, wherein the Book of Common Prayer
is used for the Mass (with minor updates). So there is no need
to lose the liturgy Anglicans may be familiar with.

Resources for those interested in the Catholic faith:

Catholic Answers
www.catholic.com
A superb site for clearing away the myths propagated by too many.
Offers free on-line library that examines all the major issues,
free on-line archive of over 1,500 hours of radio/audio material,
plus magazines, books, pamphlets, tracts, videos, and more.

Coming Home Network
www.chnetwork.org
Provides fellowship, encouragement and support for Protestant
pastors and laymen who are somewhere along the journey or
have already been received into the Catholic Church.

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism
www.biblicalcatholic.com
Dave Armstrong's monster site. Eclectic, fun, exhaustingly
detailed, personal, moving, and more.

And may God bless your journey where ever it takes you.

posted on 08/05/2003 5:19 PM PDT by polemikos

4 posted on 04/05/2005 6:44:12 PM PDT by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: narses
I understand that there is also an Anglican Use liturgy within the Catholic Church, wherein the Book of Common Prayer is used for the Mass (with minor updates). So there is no need to lose the liturgy Anglicans may be familiar with.

You are correct, and a link to it has been posted on FR in the past. It is essentially the 1928 BCP, with the absolutely ugliest and clunkiest (IMHO) element of the '79 inserted, and of course the other necessary minor updates.

I seem to recall the Orthodox have done much the same, but they ignored the "absolutely ugliest and clunkiest (IMHO) element of the '79" and added other necessary minor but rather lengthy updates.

*\;-)

5 posted on 04/05/2005 6:53:06 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: narses
Of couse, there is also the Charismatic Episcopal Church, which my father describes (if I remember correctly), a bunch of Evangelicals (?) who discovered the Book of Common Prayer and became liturgical Protestants.

Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant... all using the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. Amazing.

6 posted on 04/05/2005 6:58:48 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: narses

There are MAJOR differences between the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and the Anglican Use Book.


7 posted on 04/05/2005 6:59:44 PM PDT by kalee
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To: narses

Thanks for the links, btw.


8 posted on 04/05/2005 6:59:47 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: kalee
There are MAJOR differences between the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and the Anglican Use Book.

I amend my statement. I was referring to Holy Communion/Mass only.

9 posted on 04/05/2005 7:01:07 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || Iran Azadi || Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?)
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To: sionnsar
Actually to experience the Anglican Use Liturgy at Our Lady of Walsingham Catholic Church in Houston, Texas is to experience one of the most beautiful liturgies in the world.

It is one thing to read it on a page, it is another thing to experience it the way it has been shaped, nuanced, and loved into a parish's liturgical offering to the Most Holy Trinity.

10 posted on 04/05/2005 7:09:09 PM PDT by Siobhan († John Paul the Great, Apostle of the Gospel of Life, pray for us. †)
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To: sionnsar

:)


11 posted on 04/05/2005 7:10:09 PM PDT by narses (St James the Moor-slayer, Pray for us! +)
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To: sionnsar; sockmonkey
Get a copy of the DVD from Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church in San Antonio, TX of how they celebrate Holy Mass according to the Anglican Use liturgy.

It is somewhat different from Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, but it is nonetheless heavenly.

OUR LADY OF THE ATONEMENT

12 posted on 04/05/2005 7:20:56 PM PDT by Siobhan († John Paul the Great, Apostle of the Gospel of Life, pray for us. †)
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To: sionnsar

Bump for later.


13 posted on 04/05/2005 7:50:44 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: sionnsar; TonyRo76; MarMema; FormerLib
I am posting this because I have found Orthodoxy difficult to understand, due to lack of exposure and communication.

Orthodoxy is IMPOSSIBLE to understand by reading (or Internet exchanges) alone. That is because of its radical incarnational nature. The only way to begin to understand Orthodoxy is by experiencing Orthodox worship. And there are English-language Orthodox churches all over the place, so that you can worship in your own language, rather than Greek, Slavonic, Arabic, Romanian, etc.

It was St. Athanasius who first said, "God became man so that man might become God". He is a Western saint, too. Martin Luther also taught that Christians become united with Christ through grace (see "The Freedom of the Christian Man"). But his various misunderstandings of how close or how far away the early Lutheran movement was from Orthodoxy (which he called "the Greek church") could be explained by his not ever experiencing Orthodox worship. However, that was not his fault, since there were no Orthodox communities in his area, and he was hemmed in by the ban of the Empire and the Roman church. Moreover, the Turk separated him from the Orthodox as well.

It was left to the second generation of Lutheran reformers to make contact with the Orthodox, but that is a whole other long story...

14 posted on 04/05/2005 8:23:03 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: Honorary Serb; Agrarian; The_Reader_David; FormerLib; katnip; Kolokotronis; kosta50
Orthodoxy is indeed an experiential faith, above all. Theology was not intended to convert but to lead someone into a meeting with God. Which is what occurs during our liturgy, thanks be to God, and as you know.

Much love to you, HS, haven't seen you much here lately. Hope things are going great for you and wishing you the peace from above.

15 posted on 04/05/2005 8:30:15 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Honorary Serb

" That is because of its radical incarnational nature.'

Please point us in the direction of material that will help understand that phrase. It is very compelling language, but understanding is necessary.


16 posted on 04/05/2005 8:30:17 PM PDT by newheart (The Truth? You can't handle the Truth. But He can handle you.)
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To: sionnsar
I am posting this because I have found Orthodoxy difficult to understand, due to lack of exposure and communication.

We are prone to particularism. May God Bless you for your efforts to reach out and understand us. Please always feel welcome to come for a visit. I will treat you to lunch. And bring your delightful wife, as I think fondly of her and would love to see her again. :-)

It's a good post, btw.

17 posted on 04/05/2005 8:35:32 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: newheart
"radical incarnational"

This is not a patristic phrase that I have ever heard, although I'm sure a modern American Orthodox theologue has coined the term.

I'm not sure what it means, but the content of the post in question and Marmema's post should give a clue -- Orthodoxy is intensely practical.

It is experiential, not in the sense that "whatever you experience must be true," but in the the sense that ultimately every belief in the church is learned through active participation in the liturgical life of the church and through the application of the Orthodox Christian ascetic life. It is only when we begin to live the dogmas of the church that we truly and deeply understand them.

The other posters are absolutely right: one must "come and see" in order to understand Orthodoxy. What one can understand without attending some services is quite limited.

18 posted on 04/05/2005 8:41:46 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

The 'come and see' approach is always valid, but I have concerns because at least one of the local Orthodox churches seems to spend more time explaining how the rest of Christendom is wrong than trying to draw worshippers to the living Christ.

As an Anglican, I am weary of the hyper-critical approach to homiletics. There is always an enemy and it is seldom Satan, instead it is usually some human agency. Sadly that is true of both liberal and conservative parishes.

As for me, it may seem simplistic, but I want to see Jesus.


19 posted on 04/05/2005 8:50:02 PM PDT by newheart (The Truth? You can't handle the Truth. But He can handle you.)
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To: newheart
If you encounter an Orthodox church that is busy tearing down what others believe -- whether in the homily or at coffee hour, I'd find another one to visit, because they don't get it. The teachings of Orthodox Christianity are so rich that it is counterproductive not to just present them as is.

It's not that there isn't a place for "compare and contrast" within certain contexts, if that is where an individual or a parish is in its search for understanding. But it shouldn't be what parish life is about.

There is a prayer we pray at every service on weekdays in Great Lent (accompanied by prostrations to the ground), which goes in part "grant me to see my failings, and not to condemn my brother..." It is meant to be taken seriously.

20 posted on 04/05/2005 8:58:05 PM PDT by Agrarian
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