Posted on 12/14/2004 7:53:38 PM PST by Land of the Irish
Ah yes, the State will decide what is right and what is wrong. A few threats from the State and Catholics should dance to whatever tune the secular government dictates. If the state says, "ignore the Pope" then do it and don't ask questions. How Hitlerian. How Chi-com.
What's 5-10 compared to an Eternity in Hell?
What is the punishment for baptizing a child and then raising him in a manner contrary to it?
Huh? Your post is completely incoherent.
There you go, playing God again.
No it isn't.
Whatever.
This is so out of character for you to hurl accusations without backup./sarcasm
Not "whatever" there is a very valid point to be understood. If Pius IX is an "acknowledged Kidnapper" then JPII is an "acknowledged homophobe" and should be dragged in chains before a world court and prosecuted for his "hate speech". When you let the secular world and contempory fads dictate moral truths, you open up a world of grief.
"Contemporary fads"? OK.
I'll just come take your kid hostage. With no "secular laws" to stop me, you're outta luck.
You seem to have moved out onto the felony advocacy limb, in pursuit of some militant religious agenda. It just goes to show how getting bogged down in religous trivia, and taking it all too seriously, leads to a cult mentality and clouds common sense. Sink cut your bait with this one - permanently - along with maybe a couple of others. JMO.
No secular "law" has ever stopped a hostage situation. If you were to hypothetically attempt to take my child hostage, I wouldn't cite a secular law to stop you. I'd just stop you. Permanently. Just as I wouldn't hesitate to engage in an armed revolt against the world were the world to militantly turn on the papacy.
Felonies are committed on unborn babies every minute with the full approval of the state. Is opposition to unjust "contemporary fads" really a "militant religious agenda"?
Abortion is not a felony at present, so you are comparing apples to oranges. I don't trust those who advocate or excuse the commission of what society has enacted into law as a felony based on some militant religious agenda, and what should be a felony, by every reasonably plausible moral standard of which I am aware, and kidnapping is one of those.
You've made some conclusions and assumptions which an objective mind will not allow one to accept as representative of truth.
You seem to have moved out onto the felony advocacy limb, in pursuit of some militant religious agenda.
I'm not promoting a felony advocacy of any sort. I'm simply pointing out that the secular State is not the arbitar of moral truth. And in the event that a State is hostile to the truth of the Catholic Church, the loyalties of Catholics are to go to the Church, not the State. It's only by pushing someone against the wall with a strong example can one find out what exactly they believe and how strongly they believe in it.
It just goes to show how getting bogged down in religous trivia, and taking it all too seriously, leads to a cult mentality and clouds common sense.
One does not get "bogged down" in what is simply a discussion of moral truth and the truth of where all power in Heaven and on Earth has been given. This is an accurate assessement of the discussion as opposed to your use of the word "trivia" which is indicative of a frivolous and shallow thought process as well as the metaphysical myth of secularism; an undeclared cult mentality if there ever was one. Eternal Salvation may be important to some and not to others, that is fine. Both attitudes have consequences in terms of the temporal behavior of individuals. You can take or leave Pascal's Wager. But Pascal did not have a cult mentality nor clouded common sense and neither did Aquinas,(You can ignore his arguments for the existence of God through cause and effect but his attention to "trivia" was not a cult mentality nor clouded common sense) the same goes for Augustine, Bellarmine and many other great thinkers in the Church. Quite the opposite, it is the darkening of the intellect that occurs when one develops a "why can't we all get along?" mentality when it comes to truths that are as relevant as 2+2=4. Someone disagrees with 2+2=4 and someone calls them on it, then a third party comes in and says "this nut won't give up on this 2+2=4 stuff. You say it's five, another guy says it's three. You are all taking it too seriously and this cult of 2+2=4 is a clouded thinker."
Sink cut your bait with this one - permanently - along with maybe a couple of others. JMO.
I agree but for more thoughtful reasons. :)
Abortion is not a felony at present, so you are comparing apples to oranges.
This is all a semantics dance. Abortion is not a felony but it is murder. It is a crime. Just excused by the State which has no authority other than the whim of judges and legislators.
I don't trust those who advocate or excuse the commission of what society has enacted into law as a felony based on some militant religious agenda,
More semantics. Any opinion that disagrees with the "Extremist" Secularist Status Quo is automatically "militant" as if "militant" is somehow a bad word. The Catholic Church on earth is the "Church Militant".
and what should be a felony, by every reasonably plausible moral standard of which I am aware, and kidnapping is one of those.
Just change the name from kidnapping to "child protection " or in the case of Elian Gonzales "deportation" Everything is okay as long as you name it right. "Hijacked Islam" is somehow different from "Regular Islam" when the differences are a myth as anyone who has ever read the papal decrees on the Crusades would know.
We'll call the systematic murder of children "a woman's right to choose" and we'll fund it as well. "Eugenics" has become "Population Control" Combatants that agree with our national interests are "freedom fighters" and those that disagree are "terrorists" When we engage in terrorism it's "Guerilla Tactics" and the "Boston Tea Party" when others do it to us we call it a "Massacre" while they call it "brilliant strategy" Just read Brit history books about the American Revolution and compare them with U.S. History books. (eg. the Paoli Massacre)
Two very good posts actually by you. Thanks. But you and I just don't have any common frame of reference at all. I think it is relevant what the law of the land is, and think it should be respected, as relevant, even if one advocates a change. I guess I am just an incorrigible secular democratic humanistic pluralist. And I don't think any advocacy of kidnapping based on some religious doctrine is anything other than akin to cultism. That kind of thinking just leads into the opening, yet once again, of Pandora's box. We have been there, and done that, and the experience was neither sacred nor noble, nor frankly, anything other than sanguinary.
Yes, when the time comes inevitably to beatify Wojtyla, you may get homosexual groups, abortionists, feminists all protesting in concert. But methinks they may not have the same clout at "international Jewish groups"!
"I'll just come take your kid hostage. With no "secular laws" to stop me, you're outta luck."
I would be pleased in the knowledge he would be hugged to death and overdosed on wine and cookies. He could hide under your cavernous skirts like the poor ignorant waif in Dickens' Christmas Carol.
Is that what passes for sarcasm in the UK?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.