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F.F. Bruce's "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?"
Prydain ^
| 12/10/2004
| Will
Posted on 12/10/2004 8:14:24 AM PST by sionnsar
I never cease to marvel at the richness of the resources we have on the Internet. Towards that end, I am most pleased to link to the redoubtable scholar F.F. Bruce's The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?. This is a true treasure for apologetics, to say the least. Here is an excerpt from Chapter One, "Does It Matter?":
Does it matter whether the New Testament documents are reliable or not? Is it so very important that we should be able to accept them as truly historical records ? Some people will very confidently return a negative answer to both these questions. The fundamental principles of Christianity, they say, are laid down in the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere in the New Testament; their validity is not affected by the truth or falsehood of the narrative framework in which they are set. Indeed, it may be that we know nothing certain about the Teacher into whose mouth they are put; the story of Jesus as it has come down to us may be myth or legend, but the teaching ascribed to Him-whether He was actually responsible for it or not-has a value all its own, and a man who accepts and follows that teaching can be a true Christian even if he believes that Christ never lived at all.
This argument sounds plausible, and it may be applicable to some religions. It might be held, for example, that the ethics of Confucianism have an independent value quite apart from the story of the life of Confucius himself, just as the philosophy of Plato must be considered on its own merits, quite apart from the traditions that have come down to us about the life of Plato and the question of the extent of his indebtedness to Socrates. But the argument can be applied to the New Testament only if we ignore the real essence of Christianity. For the Christian gospel is not primarily a code of ethics or a metaphysical system; it is first and foremost good news, and as such it was proclaimed by its earliest preachers. True, they called Christianity 'The Way' and 'The Life'; but Christianity as a way of life depends upon the acceptance of Christianity as good news. And this good news is intimately bound up with the historical order, for it tells how for the world's redemption God entered into history, the eternal came into time, the kingdom of heaven invaded the realm of earth, in the great events of the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. The first recorded words of our Lord's public preaching in Galilee are: 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near; repent and believe the good news."
That Christianity has its roots in history is emphasised in the Church's earliest creeds, which fix the supreme revelation of God at a particular point in time, when 'Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord . . . suffered under Pontius Pilate'. This historical 'onceforallness' of Christianity, which distinguishes it from those religious and philosophical systems which are not specially related to any particular time, makes the reliability of the writings which purport to record this revelation a question of firstrate importance...
...the character of Jesus can be known only from the New Testament records; the influence of His character is therefore tantamount to the influence of the New Testament records. Would it not, then, be paradoxical if the records which, on the testimony of a rationalist historian, produced such results, were devoid of historical truth? This, of course, does not in itself prove the historicity of these records, for history is full of paradoxes, but it does afford an additional reason for seriously investigating the trustworthiness of records which have had so marked an influence on human history. Whether our approach is theological or historical, it does matter whether the New Testament documents are reliable or not.
For anyone who wishes to study the New Testament and its origins, this is a worthwhile read, and I commend it to you wholeheartedly.
TOPICS: General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: inerrancy
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1
posted on
12/10/2004 8:14:25 AM PST
by
sionnsar
To: ahadams2; proud_2_B_texasgal; Perseverando; TexasKamaAina; rightwingreligiousfanatic; TomSmedley; ..
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2
posted on
12/10/2004 8:14:55 AM PST
by
sionnsar
(† trad-anglican.faithweb.com † || Iran Azadi || All I want for Christmas is a legitimate governor.)
To: sionnsar
...the character of Jesus can be known only from the New Testament records
Actually, this is incorrect. The character of Jesus can only be known through oral tradition as was passed on by the original apostles and handed down from generation to generation, even to today; the Bible is a product of this. The New Testament wasn't even compiled until the late 4th century, and the authority with which the early Church had to deem the Bible as legitimate is the same authority that exists today :)
3
posted on
12/10/2004 8:18:23 AM PST
by
mike182d
To: sionnsar
To: Unam Sanctam
5
posted on
12/10/2004 8:32:37 AM PST
by
sionnsar
(† trad-anglican.faithweb.com † || Iran Azadi || All I want for Christmas is a legitimate governor.)
To: sionnsar
From this site
here:
Bibliology: The Doctrine of the Written Word Revelation Scripture is the Word of God by J.I. Packer One Year Bible Reading Plan by M'Cheyne (Online ESV) Outline of Sinclair Ferguson, "How does the Bible Look at Itself?" in Inerrancy and Hermeneutic edited by Harvie M. Conn by Rev. Charles R. Biggs (word)
Nature And Scripture (.pdf) From The Infallible Word: A Symposium, by the members of the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary, pp. 255293 The two forms of revelationrevelation through nature and revelation in Scripturebe set in careful relationship to one another. Do the two forms of Gods revelation to sinners cover two distinct interests or dimensions of human life? Do they speak with different degrees of authority? Just what, we are bound to ask, is the relation between them?
Bible Research Internet Resources for Students of Scripture by Michael D. Marlowe The New Testament and Its Context Prof. Barry D. Smith What the Bible Says About Various Topics Basic learning and reference tool 21 Questions on The Doctrine of Scripture by Francis Turretin (1623-1687) New! Bibliology: The Doctrine of the Written Word by J. Hampton Keathley III Can We Trust a Book Written 2000 Years Ago? By Dick Tripp Is Bibliolatry Possible? by S.M. Baugh
The Books of the Bible by Phyllis Hunt The Doctrine of the Word By Samuel Waldron (comprehensive) Getting the Big Picture in the Bible by CHAIM How the whole Bible fits together and points to Messiah God's Revelation to Man by Chris Schlect The Preservation of the Textus Receptus by Paul Mizzi Translation Theory and Methods by Michael Marlowe (and others)
Must I Learn How To Interpret The Bible? By D. A. Carson The Formation of the New Testament Canon by B.B. Warfield Apostles and Prophets and the Foundation of the Church by Bob DeWaay The Whole Counsel of God by Bob DeWaay Is your Modern Translation Corrupt by James R. White Answering the Allegations of KJV Only Advocates "God told me" and the Sufficiency of Scripture By Mark Dever Special Revelation, Inspiration, The Bible's Completion by Paul D. Adams Who Wrote The First 5 Books of the Bible? - ALLIS-ARCHER-GREEN-UNGER-YOUNG How is the Bible the Word of God by George Eldon Ladd The Two Testaments by F.F. BRUCE Hebrew Bible Audio Clips
Doctrine of the Bible by Valley Bible Church lessons on Revelation, Inspiration, Inerrancy, Canonicity, Transmission, and Translation Bibliology Series by Leon Stump: Includes canon of Scripture, the doctrine of inspiration, the transmission of the text, translations, and principles of interpretation. This is a sound treatise, including much interaction with scholarly works. A THEOLOGY OF SCRIPTURE by John Stevenson Has God Spoken? The Doctrine of Revelation Who Wrote the Bible? The Doctrine of Inspiration Are the Right Books in the Bible? The Doctrine of Canonicity Has the Bible Been Changed? The Doctrine of Textual Criticism In Search of Anceint Manuscripts. The Tools of Textual Criticism With Men of Other Tongues. The Process of Translation What does the Bible Say About Itself? The Bible on the Bible
Inerrancy The Inerrancy of the Autographa by Greg Bahnsen Divine Origin and Character of Scripture by Gerrit Hendrik Hospers The Autographs of Scripture by Paul Mizzi Inductivism, Inerrancy, and Presuppositionalism By Dr. Greg Bahnsen Is the Bible Inerrant? by Prof. John M. Frame An explanation of why "inerrant" is a good word to describe God's written Word The Adequacy of Human Language by J. I. PackerAn Outline Summary Inspiration and Inerrancy by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. Inerrancy and Infallibility of the Bible by P D Feinberg Does Inerrancy Really Matter? by James M. Boice The Inerrancy of Scripture by Keith VanHoozer Biblical Inerrancy by John Gerstner (book) Hermeneutics and the Doctrine of Scripture in Post-Reformation Reformed Thought by Martin I. Klauber Innerancy and Preaching by John MacArthur Modernism and Biblical Inerrancy by Brian M. Schwertley Inerrancy and inspiration of the Bible by CARM The Infallibility of Scripture by C. H. Spurgeon The Inspiration, Inerrancy,and Authority of the Bible by Ron Rhodes Inerrancy In The Old Testament Historical Books by Paul Benware Author & Theologian The Inspiration, Inerrancy & Authority of the Holy Scriptures by John Kohler The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
"To preach the Bible as 'the handbook for life,' or as the answer to every question, rather than as the revelation of Christ, is to turn the Bible into an entirely different book. This is how the Pharisees approached Scripture, as we can see clearly from the questions they asked Jesus. For the Pharisees, the Scriptures were a source of trivia for life's dilemmas. To be sure, Scripture provides God-centered and divinely revealed wisdom for life, but if this were its primary objective, Christianity would be a religion of self-improvement by following examples and exhortations, not a religion of the Cross." -Michael Horton
Inspiration Our Lord's View of the Old Testament by By The Rev. J.W. Wenham, M.A., B.D. Doctrine of Inspiration by G.H. Hospers The Inspiration of Scripture by Donald MacLeod The Humanness of Scripture by Donald MacLeod The Inspiration of Scripture by James W. Scott The Inspiration of the Bible by Rick Wade The Inspiration and Authority of Scripture by Herman Ridderbos The Doctrine of Inspiration by G.H. Hospers The Human Writers of the Scripture by E.J. Young The Divine Inspiration of the Bible by A. W. Pink (book) The Inspiration of the Bible by A.A. Hodge The Inspiration and Authority of the Scriptures by B. B. Warfield The Meaning of "Theopneustos" by B.B. Warfield Early Church Comments On Inspiration by B.B. Warfield The History of the Doctrine of Inspiration by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. Inspiration and Inerrancy by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. Theories of Inspiration by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. Inspiration, Authority and Criticism in the Thought of Charles Augustus Briggs by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. The Synoptic Problem and Inspiration: A Response by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. "The Defense of Inspiration" - (Selected Scriptures) by John MacArthur Our God-Breathed Bible by John MacArthur "The Inspiration of Scripture" by John MacArthur Prolegomena: Inspiration by Pastor Bob Burridge Who Wrote the Bible? The Doctrine of Inspiration by John Stevenson Revelation and the Inspiration of Scripture by John Fork The Wonderful Unity of the Bible Attests to its Authorship A.W. Pink The Inspiration of the Bible by Rick Wade Articles Defending the Inspiration and Trustworthiness of the Bible by Matt Perman Is Sola Scriptura a Protestant Concoction? by Dr. Greg Bahnsen Highly Recommended*
The Inspiration of Scripture by Lorraine Boettner
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"For as the aged, or those whose sight is defective, when any books however fair, is set before them, though they perceive that there is something written are scarcely able to make out two consecutive words, but, when aided by glasses, begin to read distinctly, so Scripture, gathering together the impressions of Deity, which, till then, lay confused in our minds, dissipates the darkness, and shows us the true God clearly"
- John Calvin, Institutes of Christian religion |
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Either the Bible will keep you away from sin, or sin will keep you away from the Bible! |
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The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no-one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt. It is a curious fact that historians have often been much readier to trust the New Testament than have many theologians.
- F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? [1949], p. 15 |
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Formation of the New/Old Testament Canon The Concept and Importance of Canonicity by Greg Bahnsen Evangelicals and the Canon of the New Testament by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. The Development of the Canon of the New Testament By Glenn Davis The Development of the Canon of the New Testament by Bruce M. Metzger, Wilhelm Schneemelcher created by Glenn Davis Introduction to the Canon and Ancient Versions of Scripture by Michael Marlowe A brief and non-technical review of the development of the canon and the role of ancient versions in this process. How the Books of the Bible Were Chosen The Formation of the New Testament Canon by B.B. Warfield The Canon of Scripture By Samuel Waldron The Origins of the New Testament Written by Robert C. Jones Were the Apostolic Fathers Unable to Distinguish Between Authentic and Unauthentic Books? by Glenn Miller How We Got our Bible by Mike Vlach (pdf) The Canon of Scripture by Curt Daniel The Witness of History for Scripture By Franz Pieper THE FORMATION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON Stephen Voorwinde Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions? by Ronald Nash The Content and Extent of the Old Testament Canon by D. Wayne Stiles, II, Th.M. What Writings are Truly in the Canon of the Old Testament Scriptures Canon Fire On the Formation of the NT Canon by J. P. Holding The Textual Reliability of the New Testament by J. P. Holding The Gospels: Q, Literary Dependence, and So Forth by J. P. Holding A Defense of the Authenticity of the Pastoral Epistles by J. P. Holding A Defense of the Authenticity of the Trial Narratives by J. P. Holding How We Got the Old Testament by Dr. Lane Burgland How We Got the New Testament by Dr. Lane Burgland How Many Books Are in the Bible? by Erwin W. Lutzer The Early Canon Process of the New Testament By James White Are the Right Books in the Bible? The Doctrine of Canonicity by John Stevenson The Canon of Scripture by Pastor Bob Burridge The Canon of the New Testament, Chapter 3 in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? or read whole book by F. F. Bruce, How the Books of the New Testament Were Selected, Chapter 2 in >>>An Introduction to the New Testament <<< by Richard Heard The Apostles and the Written Word by Leland M. Haines Roy W. Hoover, How the Canon Was Formed How We Got our Bible In Depth Study by Mike Vlach Stephen Voorwinde, The Formation of the New Testament Canon, Seven Principles For Recognizing Canonical Books by Bob and Gretchen Passantino Were the Apostolic Fathers Unable to Distinguish Between Authentic and Unauthentic Books? by Glenn Miller Five Arguments For the Integrity and Veracity of the NT in General and the Four Canonical Gospels in Particular by Glenn Miller Did the Roman Empire Totally Distort the New Testament Documents? by Glenn Miller The Question of "Where Did the Gospels Become Authentic?" by Glenn Miller The Canon of the Bible by by William Evans Evangelicals and the Canon of the New Testament by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D. Canon of the Bible by John Edward Lynch The Perspicuity ("Clearness") of Scripture--A Reply to Dave Armstrong By T.G. Enloe
The Bible itself teaches its divine origin and authority:
- That "No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20
- That all Scripture was written as "Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21
- That "God Spoke . . . through the prophets . . . and by His Son." Hebrews 1:1-2
- That "All Scripture is God-breathed." 2 Timothy 3:16
- The Word of God, once given and written, is exact in all details down to each letter and stroke of the pen. Matthew 5:18
- That "The Scripture cannot be broken." John 10:35
- That "The Word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:25
Study Guide: "Is the Bible Reliable?" by John MacArthur New! --"The God Who Speaks" - (Selected Scriptures) --"God Has Spoken" - (Selected Scriptures) --"God Has Spoken--But Why?" - (Selected Scriptures) --"Our God-Breathed Bible" - (Selected Scriptures) --"The Defense of Inspiration" - (Selected Scriptures) --"The Amazing Truth of the Bible" - (Selected Scriptures) --"The Bible Verifiable by Miracles" - (Selected Scriptures) --"The Miraculous Jesus" - (Selected Scriptures) --"Science and the Scripture" - (Selected Scriptures) --"Prewritten History--Part 1" - (Selected Scriptures) --"Prewritten History--Part 2" - (Selected Scriptures)
Authority & Sola Scriptura Freedom and Authority by Dr. J. I. Packer The Authority of Scripture by Martyn Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981) Who Really Speaks for God by John H. Armstrong - On the issue of Authority considering Roman Catholic and Protestamnt perspectives The Inspiration and Authority of Scripture by Herman Ridderbos The Inspiration and Authority of the Scriptures by B. B. Warfield Authority: The Church & The Bible by Edmund P Clowney Why Should We Believe the Bible? by John Rogers The Authority of Scripture: Notes on Westminster by Douglas Wilson The Authority of Scripture by William Webster Sola Scriptura and the Early Church By William Webster The Authority of the Old Testament by Rev. P. Andrew Sandlin The Bereans Rejected Sola Scriptura?? A Review and Rebuttal of an article in This Rock by James White The Bible Is the Authoritative Word of God by Dr. Ken Schurb The Scripture Sufficient Without Unwritten Traditions By Thomas Manton Scripture and Tradition by Dr. Sinclair Ferguson Is the Bible the Only Revelation from God? by Greg Herrick, Ph.D. The Protestant Rule of Faith by Charles Hodge Christ's View of the Authority of Canonical Scripture: A Paradigm for Systematic Theology by Christopher Louis Lang Sola Scriptura by A.A. Hodge Is Sola Scriptura a Protestant Concoction? by Dr. Greg Bahnsen The Concept and Importance of Canonicity by Greg Bahnsen New Testament Statements of Inspiration by Bernie L. Gillespie (pdf) The Sufficiency of the Written Word by Dr. John F. MacArthur, Jr The Sufficiency of Scripture by John MacArthur Traditionalism and Sola Scriptura Part I; Part II by John M. Frame Does the Bible Teach Sola Scriptura? James White vs. Patrick Madrid (debate) What Did the Early Church Believe About Scripture Alone? by William Webster Sola Scriptura? by Brian Schwertley (e-book) What Do We Mean by Sola Scriptura? by Dr. W. Robert Godfrey Scripture Alone by Bernie L. Gillespie Sola Scriptura by Kevin Efflandt on the cardinal doctrine of the Reformation. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and sufficient. Is the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura Really Biblical? by Tony Warren Authority in the Bible by C F H Henry On Continuing Revelation by John Calvin Does The Bible Teach Sola Scriptura? Gerry Matatics vs. James White - Reformed/Catholic debate Authority in the Bible by G W Knight, III, H D McDonald & C F H Henry Surprised by What? A Defense of Sola Scriptura by Jake Magee This article is an examination of various Roman Catholic apologist's arguments against the doctrine of Sola Scriptura as found in the original "Surprised by Truth" book Six sermons on THE SURE WORD OF GOD by Geoff Thomas associate editor of the "Banner of Truth" Interpretation/Hermeneutics Rules in the Study and Interpretation of Scripture (PCA) The Two Ages and Redemptive History Two Age "How to Study Your Bible: Interpretation" by John MacArthur Must I Learn How To Interpret The Bible? By D. A. Carson What Are We Looking For In the Bible? By Michael S. Horton Interpreting the Bible by Bruce Waltke The Holy Spirit and Hermeneutics by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Reformed Hermeneutics: How we interpret the Bible Hermeneutics and the Creation Wars R. Scott Clark A Reformed Confession Regarding Hermeneutics By Dr. Greg Bahnsen Recommended Biblical Studies Resources On Biblical Hermeneutics by Two Age Biblical Interpretation by CARM The Interpretation of Scripture by Pastor Bob Burridge (GIRS) Hermeneutics and Biblical Theology By Dr. Steven M. Baugh We must realize that there is one theme running throughout all of the books of the Bible, tying the subplots, characters, and sub-themes into one grand redemptive drama. A Christological Hermeneutic: Crisis and Conflict in Hermeneutics by Donald G. Bloesch Monergism.com Sub-Section on Hermeneutics Geneva Institute of Reformed Studies (lessons) Prolegomena: Revelation, Divine Self-Disclosure by Pastor Bob Burridge Prolegomena: The Canon of Scripture by Pastor Bob Burridge Prolegomena: Inspiration by Pastor Bob Burridge The Preservation of Scripture by Pastor Bob Burridge Translation of Scripture by Pastor Bob Burridge The Interpretation of Scripture by Pastor Bob Burridge Perspectives on the Word of God, part 1 by: John M. Frame Introduction; and The Nature of the Word of God
Perspectives on the Word of God, part 2 by: John M. Frame The Media of the Word of God Perspectives on the Word of God, part 3 by: John M. Frame The Word of God and Christian Ethics General Bible Bible Gateway Net Bible by Biblical Studies Pres The Unchanging Character of God's Word by Steve Schlissel Is Propositional Revelation Nonsense by Francis Schaeffer Understanding the Bible Is it Possible? by Jack Crabtree The Battle for the Bible by Herman C. Hanko The Inerrancy, Canoncity and Interpretation of Scripture by John Fork DOCTRINE OF THE WORD OF GOD Lecture Outline By John M. Frame On Reading the Bible by John Newton The Word of God by John Calvin The Old and New Testaments by John Calvin The Credibility of Scripture by John Calvin Examples of Exegesis by John Calvin The Word Our Only Rule by John Calvin Calvin On Continuing Revelation by John Calvin The Protestant Rule Of Faith by Charles Hodge Our Need of Scripture by J. I. Packer
Blue Letter Bible The Importance and Duty of Meditating on the Word of God by I. C. Herendeen The Scriptures More Precious Than Gold by Charles Bridges The Two Testaments by F.F. Bruse The Scriptures Opened by Institute of Practical Bible Education The Speaking Voice by A.W. Tozer Useful Lessons fo Reading and Searching the Scriptures by Thomas Boston The Daily Exercise of God's Most Holy & Sacred Word! by John Knox Preface to Romans by Martin Luther The Divine & Human in the Bible B.B. Warfield Theonomy and the Dating of Revelation by Robert L. Thomas Which Bible translation is best? by John MacArthur How should we study the Bible? by John MacArthur Why I Am Committed to Teaching the Bible by John MacArthur "The Character of God's Word" by John MacArthur "What it Takes to Study God's Word" by John MacArthur "How to Study Your Bible: Closing the Gaps" by John MacArthur Why Four Gospels? by A. W. Pink What is the Bible About? by Edmund P Clowney The Critical Use of the Old Testament by R.K. Harrison The Gospel in Old Testament Preaching by R.K. Harrison Myths About the Bible by Dr. Don Deffner The Power of Gods Word by Dr. Robert Preus There is a Presumtion in Favor of the Bible A.W. Pink DOES GOD SPEAK TODAY APART FROM THE BIBLE? R. Fowler White
Sola Scriptura by A.A. Hodge Bible Translation Website Are the Biblical Documents Reliable? by Jimmy Williams Bible-Reading by J. C. Ryle Choosing a Bible Objective and informative by the Christian Research Institute Are the Biblical Documents Reliable? by Jimmy Williams How have the discoveries of archaeology verified the reliability of the Bible? Archaeology and the Bible Confirmation of Biblical events - Is there any from written sources outside the Bible? Archaeology and the Bible The Content and Extent of the OT Canon by D. Wayne Stiles, II Evangelicals and the Canon of the New Testament by M. James Sawyer The Bible Above all Price by Edward Payson The Problem of Apparent Chronological Contradictions in the Synoptics by Joe Botti, Tom Dixon, & Alex Steinman The Adequacy of Scripture by Greg Herrick, Ph.D. Is 2 Peter Peter's? by Wayne Stiles The Authorship of 2 Peter by Hampton Keathley IV The Conspiracy Behind the New Bible Translations by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Crisis of the Word (2 Timothy 2:15) by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Common Assaults on the Gospel by J. Hampton Keathley III The Content and Extent of the OT Canon by Wayne Stiles The Witness of the Spirit in the Protestant Tradition by Dr. M. James Sawyer The Majority Text and the Original Text: Are they Identical? by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Mark 1:2 and NT Textual Criticism by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Mystery Truths of Scripture by J. Hampton Keathley III Some Second Thoughts on the Majority Text by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Survey of Bible Doctrine: The Bible by Sid Litke, Th.M. The Synoptic Problem by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. We Can Trust the Bible by Lehman Strauss, Litt.D., F.R.G.S. Why I Do Not Think the King James Bible is the Best Translation Available Today by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Why So Many Versions? by Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. Bibliology: The Bible by Greg Herrick, PhD. The Knowledge of God the Creator by John Calvin Can We Understand the Bible by Ron Julian
To preach the word . . . and not to follow it with constant and fervent prayer for its success, is to disbelieve its use, neglect its end, and to cast away the seed of the gospel at random. |
JOHN OWEN
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6
posted on
12/10/2004 9:01:59 AM PST
by
No_Outcome_But_Victory
(Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife. (High risk pregnancy.))
To: mike182d
The character of Jesus can only be known through oral tradition as was passed on by the original apostles and handed down from generation to generation, even to today; the Bible is a product of this. The New Testament wasn't even compiled until the late 4th century, and the authority with which the early Church had to deem the Bible as legitimate is the same authority that exists today :) I've seen this general statement before. It appears to be caused by certain historians who confused the codification of the various written materials of the day into a canon that would be accepted by all as representing the revealed Word of God. The canon was codified about AD400, but that canon was based on written material that already existed, not oral material.
The short book referenced in this thread has a comment on this point:
One thing must be emphatically stated. The New Testament books did not become authoritative for the Church because they were formally included in a canonical list; on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognising their innate worth and generally apostolic authority, direct or indirect. The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa-at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397-but what these councils did was not to impose something new upon the Christian communities but to codify what was already the general practice of those communities.
BTW: I've skimmed the book this thread is linked to. It looks pretty well done, although it is pretty short considering the complexity of the overall subject matter. From what I saw in my initial run through, the book is consistent with the known historical record.
7
posted on
12/10/2004 9:10:01 AM PST
by
EternalHope
(Boycott everything French forever. Including their vassal nations.)
To: sionnsar
Oops, that post was a lot longer than I had intended. Sorry about that!
8
posted on
12/10/2004 9:13:09 AM PST
by
No_Outcome_But_Victory
(Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife. (High risk pregnancy.))
To: sionnsar
SITREP - for future reference
9
posted on
12/10/2004 4:19:19 PM PST
by
LiteKeeper
(Secularization of America is happening)
To: sionnsar
He was actually responsible for it or not-has a value all its own, and a man who accepts and follows that teaching can be a true Christian even if he believes that Christ never lived at all.Is the person who proposed this logic a member of the Ninth Circuit?
10
posted on
12/10/2004 4:25:34 PM PST
by
AndrewC
(Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
To: mike182d
The character of Jesus can only be known through oral tradition as was passed on by the original apostles and handed down from generation to generation, even to today; the Bible is a product of this.I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. John was an eyewitness and Paul wrote his epistles within a few years after the Crucifixion.
11
posted on
12/10/2004 4:30:31 PM PST
by
AndrewC
(Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
To: No_Outcome_But_Victory
12
posted on
12/10/2004 4:58:31 PM PST
by
sionnsar
(† trad-anglican.faithweb.com † || Iran Azadi || All I want for Christmas is a legitimate governor.)
To: sionnsar
13
posted on
12/10/2004 5:00:21 PM PST
by
JusPasenThru
(If you want to get it movin' you must learn to doof da bouven.)
To: sionnsar
Yikes!
________________________________________
Sorry, my fat finger posted too fast. I wasn't supposed to post the whole thing! :P
14
posted on
12/10/2004 6:03:25 PM PST
by
No_Outcome_But_Victory
(Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife. (High risk pregnancy.))
To: JusPasenThru
BMFLR? Translation, please! I don't read q[rotin;kj cvj er[oijnfg skn[;fkjn[kjnsfmfn g'jk.
Thanks
15
posted on
12/10/2004 7:03:42 PM PST
by
LibreOuMort
("...But as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry)
To: LibreOuMort
Book Marked For Later Reading.
16
posted on
12/10/2004 7:18:46 PM PST
by
JusPasenThru
(If you want to get it movin' you must learn to doof da bouven.)
To: AndrewC
John is an "alleged" eyewitness, which the Church verified upon canonizing the current New Testament we have today, while the Gospel of Thomas, another "alleged" eyewitness, was left out. Ultimately, it was the early Church fathers and the tradition passed down from the 11 apostles that formed everything we know of Jesus today, and even the Bible itself.
For example, Paul very rarely recounts an event of Jesus' life BUT when he does he always prefaces his account with "as was handed on to me."
17
posted on
12/13/2004 6:38:25 AM PST
by
mike182d
To: mike182d
For example, Paul very rarely recounts an event of Jesus' life BUT when he does he always prefaces his account with "as was handed on to me."Of course, he wasn't an eyewitness, but he talked to eyewitnesses so beyond the first saying, it was not an oral tradition.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Your use of "alleged" is irrelevant since this is not a mathematical proof nor a criminal trial. There are written documents that point to the facts, not an oral tradition, cleaned and published centuries later. The fact that there are ancient writings excluded from the canon indicates a tradition of writing.
18
posted on
12/13/2004 6:35:04 PM PST
by
AndrewC
(Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
To: AndrewC
Your use of "alleged" is irrelevant since this is not a mathematical proof nor a criminal trial. There are written documents that point to the facts, not an oral tradition, cleaned and published centuries later. The fact that there are ancient writings excluded from the canon indicates a tradition of writing.
And what "facts" do we have to verify anything that is written in the Gospels? I don't recall the history books ever mentioning that Jesus walked on water. The only remotely factual documentation of any part of Jesus' life, with the exception of his death (Shroud of Turin), is what is found in the New Testament and the books that compile the New Testament are considered true because the early Church said they were. Many stories of Jesus' life in the various churches were considered "inspired text" prior to any official decree of the Church but were later excluded from the canon. For example, with what "facts" do we have to prove that Jesus did not have a child with Mary Magdelene? None, apart from what the early Church taught and later passed down through generations.
19
posted on
12/13/2004 8:35:03 PM PST
by
mike182d
To: No_Outcome_But_Victory
WOW. Thanks. Bookmarked for slow digestion. hope your wife is fine......per prayer request on tagline.
20
posted on
12/13/2004 9:00:10 PM PST
by
bperiwinkle7
("In the beginning was the Word.....")
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