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To: Stubborn

"Suffice to say that, per Scripture as interpreted by the Church, as well as what Vatican Council I infallibly declared, what I posted accurately reflects what the Church teaches. Namely, the Pope singularly has authority over the whole Church - including Councils and the Magisterium."

Surely you do not claim that the Pope of Rome or a non Ecumenical Council such as Vatican I has any authority over the Patriarchs, metropolitans or bishops or clergy of the Eastern Church, do you? That would violate any number of canons of the Ecumenical Councils. Canons IV, VI, VIII, XV & XVI of the First Council of Nicea, Canon II of the First Council of Constantinople, and Canon VIII of the Third Ecumenical Council, among others. The last mentioned canon is particularly telling:

" OUR brother bishop Rheginus, the beloved of God, and his fellow beloved of God bishops, Zeno and Evagrius, of the Province of Cyprus, have reported to us an innovation which has been introduced contrary to the ecclessiastical constitutions and the Canons of the Holy Apostles, and which touches the liberties of all. Wherefore, since injuries affecting all require the more attention, as they cause the greater damage, and particularly when they are transgressions of an ancient custom; and since those excellent men, who have petitioned the Synod, have told us in writing and by word of mouth that the Bishop of Antioch has in this way held ordinations in Cyprus; therefore the Rulers of the holy churches in Cyprus shall enjoy, without dispute or injury, according to the Canons of the blessed Fathers and ancient custom, the right of performing for themselves the ordination of their excellent Bishops. The same rule shall be observed in the other dioceses and provinces everywhere, so that none of the God beloved Bishops shall assume control of any province which has not heretofore, from the very beginning, been under his own hand or that of his predecessors. But if any one has violently taken and subjected [a Province], he shall give it up; lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of worldly honour be brought in under pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberty which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Deliverer of all men, hath given us by his own Blood.

Wherefore, this holy and ecumenical Synod has decreed that in every province the rights which heretofore, from the beginning, have belonged to it, shall be preserved to it, according to the old prevailing custom, unchanged and uninjured: every Metropolitan having permission to take, for his own security, a copy of these acts. And if any one shall bring forward a rule contrary to what is hero determined, this holy and ecumenical Synod unanimously decrees that it shall be of no effect."

These were universal synods with abosolute power over the affairs of the Church, of which Rome was a part. If Rome changed this after the seven Ecumenical Councils, was that not innovation, by what right was it done and how come it took Rome so long to figure out that it had this power?


115 posted on 11/24/2004 4:34:15 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Surely you do not claim that the Pope of Rome or a non Ecumenical Council such as Vatican I has any authority over the Patriarchs, metropolitans or bishops or clergy of the Eastern Church, do you? That would violate any number of canons of the Ecumenical Councils. Canons IV, VI, VIII, XV & XVI of the First Council of Nicea, Canon II of the First Council of Constantinople, and Canon VIII of the Third Ecumenical Council, among others. The last mentioned canon is particularly telling

Ahh, I see you've posted some info I can look up - thanks, I will look up the canons you posted. (shoulda read all my pings before replying to the last one). Vatican Council I was also an eccumenical council. Heres a list of the eccumenical councils for you: http://www.piar.hu/councils/~index.htm

These were universal synods with abosolute power over the affairs of the Church, of which Rome was a part. If Rome changed this after the seven Ecumenical Councils, was that not innovation, by what right was it done and how come it took Rome so long to figure out that it had this power?

Just to clarify that while it is true that ecummenical councils are safeguarded from the possibility of error, it is also true that not every word or declaration that proceeds from eccumenical councils are always deemed infallible.

As far as the Pope or councils having authority over the eastern church goes, Vatican Council I, which defined the dogma of the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff did mention that "Bishops from the eastern Orthodox churches were also invited, but did not come." Which to me, who is not knowing, without delving into in any further at this time, says that the Church does indeed believe She has that authority over the Orthodox.

144 posted on 11/25/2004 3:49:30 AM PST by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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