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To: Tamar1973
The Noachide laws are NOT in Torah. They are mostly of Talmudic origin and came long after Noah died. The Noachide laws, of which only a few are presented in the text in Acts were only considered the starting off point for newly baptised believers. They were never considered the end of the line as far as Torah observance among the Gentile believers is concerned. This corresponds with what James said in Acts 15:21, "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

I have in front of me, Stone's Edition of the Chumash, the Art Scroll Series, and in Genesis 9:9-17 in the written Torah, it's almost verbatim with my KJV, so I'm not sure what your saying here.

There is nothing in the New Testament that suggest those Noahide laws were just the starting off point to keeping the whole law.

Some 6 years after the council meeting, Paul was telling his Gentile converts that they need not be concerned with the clean and unclean meat issue.

1 Cor 10:25-27 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.,/b>

He also said in Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

For someone who was gradually going to start bringing the Gentiles under the Laws of Moses, he certainly hadn't started yet.

And yes, I know all about koinos-koinoo and akathartos, comon and unclean, of Acts 10. :)

JH :)

169 posted on 11/22/2004 11:56:16 AM PST by JHavard
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To: JHavard
I have in front of me, Stone's Edition of the Chumash, the Art Scroll Series, and in Genesis 9:9-17 in the written Torah, it's almost verbatim with my KJV, so I'm not sure what your saying here.

Noachide Laws courtesy of Aish.com

The Jewish idea is that the Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. The Torah (as explained in the Talmud - Sanhedrin 58b) presents seven mitzvot for non-Jews to observe. These seven laws are the pillars of human civilization, and are named the "Seven Laws of Noah," since all humans are descended from Noah. They are:

  1. Do not murder.
  2. Do not steal.
  3. Do not worship false gods.
  4. Do not be sexually immoral.
  5. Do not eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.
  6. Do not curse God.
  7. Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these laws earns a proper place in heaven. So you see, the Torah is for all humanity, no conversion necessary.

As well, when King Solomon built the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, he specifically asked God to heed the prayer of non-Jews who come to the Temple (1-Kings 8:41-43). The Temple was the universal center of spirituality, which the prophet Isaiah referred to as a "house for all nations." The service in the Holy Temple during the week of Sukkot featured a total of 70 bull offerings, corresponding to each of the 70 nations of the world. In fact, the Talmud says if the Romans would have realized how much they were benefiting from the Temple, they never would have destroyed it!

Today, there are many active groups of non-Jews called "B'nai Noach" who faithfully observe the Seven Laws of Noah.

There is an excellent book on the topic, called:
"The Path of the Righteous Gentile"
by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Rogalsky.

However, let's also review the text you mention Gen. 9:8-17, which states (NAS), " 8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9 "Now behold, I Myself do establish My covenant with you, and with your descendants after you; 10and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that comes out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. 11 "I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth."

12 God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all successive generations; 13 I set My bowin the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. 14 "It shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow will be seen in the cloud, 15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." 17 And God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth."

Where is G-d's call upon Noah to not to eat animal parts, to set up courts of justice, etc. from this text? These things are alluded to in other texts but only in the Talmud are they spelt out.

I find it interesting that someone who claims to believe in Yeshua would rather follow the traditions of men (Talmud) rather than the Word of G-d as revealed in Torah.

172 posted on 11/22/2004 1:28:41 PM PST by Tamar1973 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats-- PJ O'Rourke)
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To: JHavard
Some 6 years after the council meeting, Paul was telling his Gentile converts that they need not be concerned with the clean and unclean meat issue.

1 Cor 10:25-27 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

He also said in Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Typical Christian anti-nomian mis-representations of Paul's words. Sad, but true.

The first text (2 Corinthians 10:23-25)is taking out of context because it's a reference to the issue of purchasing animals from markets which might have obtained them from pagan temples. This is not an issue of ham v. lamb at all. This is made clear in verse 28-29, which states, 28 But if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake; 29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? "

Notice that Paul never says in any of his discourses on food that if someone sets a ham before you, you should eat it.

Quoting Biblical texts out of their contexts weakens your argument.

As for the text in Romans, if you look at the context, you see that Paul is contending with those in the community who are claiming that the only proper menu for a Christian is a vegetarian menu. Even these days, there are many 7th Day Adventists who fall into this trap, for example.

Read Romans 1:1-3 which states, "1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him."

173 posted on 11/22/2004 1:49:22 PM PST by Tamar1973 (Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats-- PJ O'Rourke)
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