Posted on 11/19/2004 8:21:22 AM PST by Stubborn
Well-meaning, not highly educated Catholics who eagerly joined bible-study groups after the Council not uncommonly found their inherited faith shaken, as they were invited -- by group leaders and by written materials -- to scrutinize Catholic teachings and practices sceptically and to measure them against the New Testament in classical Protestant fashion, a scrutiny which usually seemed to work to the Church's disadvantage. Although this was not their original intention, many people became liberal Catholics through the medium of Bible study. (Thus liberal Catholics are quick to ask, for example, "Where does the New Testament condemn homosexuality?" or "Where does it say that women cannot be ordained priests?")
(Excerpt) Read more at cwnews.com ...
You may not think the Catholic Church is capable of protecting, safeguarding and promulgating the truths of the Gospel - but were it not for the Catholic Church, no one would have done it.
If I had it and used it, I would be in the same predictment your in. I would lose my love for studying Gods word, and I'd let others think for me.
No thanks
JH :)
The Catholic Church has a hard enough time safe guarding its own people from its own ministers. I don't think the Creator of all that is, needs the Catholic Church to safeguard His Word. Just a hunch.
At least you'd understand the message Scripture is trying to convey instead of mis-interpreting it.
I get it- no response.
nevermind
There in lies the danger. Each and every born again believer has the power to interprete on their own. (1 John 2:27). It's just a matter of "believeing" that.
Becky
By that logic, Protestant should also throw out the entire New Testament. ;-)
No I wouldn't, I would just understand what some priest thought it meant, and that could be correct, or it could be from his Catholic box.
How can you know what Gods Spirit wants you to know when you refuse to let Him speak to you?
The scriptures are a miracle of Gods word that like Him, they have every answer we need in life, and one scripture that answers your question today, may answer a different problem tomorrow or a month or year later.
God has so many wonderful things He wants to tell you about, but your Church has set up a firewall between Him and you that condemns you as an anathema if you listen and obey Him.
If your hierarchy believed they were the true Church, and that the Bible was Gods written word, they would encourage your people to study and do their own apologetics, instead of writing down what someone else said, so you can copy and paste them.
I have been in a lot of sports and had a lot of outside interest in my life time, but the word of God has given me more company and enjoyment then any single thing I can think of.
When you read commentaries, the author talks to you.
When you read Gods word, He talks to you.
JH :)
Not according to the Bible (2 Peter 1:20, 3:16)
that boils it down nicely.
"Perhaps in overseas communities where if you feed a village they are then all considered Catholics, but find me the stats for the US that shows converts chose to join the Catholic Church with no previous connection to it, and I’ll admit I was wrong."
I don't have any stats. You can Google as well as I can. Look it up. What do you mean by "no previous connection"? Can you know someone who is Catholic and then convert? Or marry a Catholic and convert? What if you are bouncing around from denomination to denomination trying to find one that fits and come around to the Catholic church? These things happen all the time! You don't have to be raised Catholic or have it in your background somehow to become a Catholic. There are many faith journeys out there that have led even Catholic haters to the Church. And what difference does this make, anyway? The Catholic faith is nearly 2000 years old. Most people around here have some knowledge of it's existance even if their beliefs about it are all wrong.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I talk to him daily through prayer and meditation. I try to serve our Lord in just about everything I do. I realize that I am nothing without him and don't ever want to lose touch with him. I read my bible. I come to different conclusions than you. I also read books written by Catholics. I'm sure this influences my thought process but it only affirms what I already believed. How is it that my interpretation is wrong and yours is correct? How do you KNOW????
You said you'd studied much of my history. It's your history, too. It's the writings of the early church fathers. That is what I read. The daily problems and exchanges of those early Christians. I try to live my life accordingly. Am I doing a perfect job? Of course not! Have all the priests and bishops been perfect? Of course not! Jesus said there would be evil within the walls of the church but that evil WOULD NOT prevail and it hasn't. We have scandal in the Church now but it will not be the end of the Catholic church. There's a little housekeeping going on. It's happened in the past and will no doubt happen again in the future. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church will always be here. The gates of hell have not prevailed.
Jesus gave his apostles the power to teach. Why would I not listen to my teachers now? In writings as early as the first century from St. Clement tell me I should. It is not in conflict with what the bible teaches.
ST. CLEMENT OF ROME
The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent from God. Christ, therefore is from God and the Apostles are from Christ. Both, accordingly, came in proper order by the will of God. Receiving their orders, therefore, and being filled with confidence because of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and confirmed in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Spirit, they went forth preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that was about to come. Preaching, accordingly, throughout the country and the cities, they appointed their first-fruits, after testing them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should believe.
ST. CYPRIAN
Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honor of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven' (Mt. 16:16-18). Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers. Since this, then, is founded on the divine law, I marvel that some, with daring temerity, have chosen to write to me as if they wrote in the name of the Church; when the Church is established in the bishop and the clergy, and all who stand fast in the faith.
There are many more examples but know that you consider yourself an historian. I love reading the early Fathers. I am not a history buff, per se. I've lost a few brain cells since I've had children and am lucky if anything sticks! :-) I have no idea the answer to your question about the Old Testament translation. Since I've seen you ask this several times now, I'm assuming you know the answer. So instead of trying to quiz us why don't you just enlighten us?
You remain as deeply confused as ever. The Catholic Church is itself a denomination. Here is the definition of the word...
Denomination - A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
And are you really trying to say there have been no divisions within the Catholic Church? You listed a few in a previous post including..."Roman Catholics, Byzantine Catholics, Chaldean Catholics". That just scratches the surface. Have you ever once actually meditated on what you are being told by the "One Church"? It is a deeply flawed and inconsistent doctrine. Have you ever tried to support it with personal meditation and study of the entire Bible? Study done outside the context of a steady stream of Catholic doctrinal support? That would be a study worth your time and effort. At its conclusion, you will ever have a deeper dedication to and understanding of Catholic doctrine, or you will have rejected it completely. Do you dare take that chance? Can you afford not to?
With regard to the Council of Nicaea... Somehow, some way, you have GOT to realize that there is a world beyond what spills from Catholic doctrine. The greatest accomplishment from the Council of Nicaea was probably the Nicene Creed. A creed that is repeated in almost every Christian denomination. Do you realize that the word "catholic" in the Nicene Creed is NOT capitalized. That it refers to a universal CHRISTIAN Church. Not a single Catholic Church. If you don't, you've been misled. Do you realize that the fundamental beliefs in the Nicene Creed are absolutely essential to the doctrines of every Protestant church? Churches you don't even consider "Churches".
I consider the Catholic Church to be a strong, Christian institution that has been responsible for bringing countless otherwise lost souls to a relationship with Jesus Christ. But I understand that while the Church (the Body of Christ, not the Catholic Church) is inspired by God, denominations of that single Body of Christ are subject to flaws inherent to their human members. The Catholic Church is no exception. Therefore, it is VITAL to measure any and all doctrine emanating from all Christian denominations with the only guide God gave us...The Holy Bible. While you have strong loyalty to Catholic Doctrine, if you cannot support that doctrine with solid, Biblical evidence, it is no more valid than the ramblings of kooks like Jim Jones and David Koresh. The fact that Catholic Bishops published requirements for what constitutes a "church" is essentially meaningless outside of Catholic doctrine. Just as people who wear blue tinted glasses are not correct in stating that the world is blue, just because that is how they view the world. Jesus Christ is THE SINGLE authority for the creation of His Church. The Holy Bible, God's own Word, provides the ONLY guidance we need. MAN (even Catholic Bishops) cannot improve on His design. It is blaspheme to think otherwise.
My PC search engines have been compromised recently with malicious software as Google calls it, and I’ve been unable to find a virus program that will stop it. Searching takes so long to load or to back up it’s not worth the time.
What if you are bouncing around from denomination to denomination trying to find one that fits and come around to the Catholic church?
I’ve never said no one ever becomes a member of the Catholic Church unless they’ve been first accustomed to the rituals previously, but I do believe the number is insignificant compared to other denominations that have a friendly environment, and friendly people who invite visitors, and welcome all into the congregation.
I think most Catholics deep inside feel they and the visitors would be uncomfortable and embarrassed because they’d stand out not knowing how to follow all the man made rituals.
As long as your Church has been around it should have new people flocking to your doors, but you seem to think the opulence and the pseudo-royalty appearance is more important then a church that exudes the love of God. This was just my impression the first time I had contact with your Church, and attended a Mass.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus. I talk to him daily through prayer and meditation. I try to serve our Lord in just about everything I do. I realize that I am nothing without him and don't ever want to lose touch with him. I read my bible. I come to different conclusions than you. I also read books written by Catholics. I'm sure this influences my thought process but it only affirms what I already believed. How is it that my interpretation is wrong and yours is correct? How do you KNOW????
I believe there are many good believing Catholics in the world, and you are probably one of them, it’s the head that’s rotting, and out of touch with God, and their fellow man. No one is closer to fitting the mold of the Pharisee Jesus denounced, then those I see running their politics out of your church.
Christ church was made of believers, ordinary God fearing people, not a bunch of pious self-righteous bishops/Pharisees.
You said you'd studied much of my history. It's your history, too. It's the writings of the early church fathers. That is what I read. The daily problems and exchanges of those early Christians. I try to live my life accordingly. Am I doing a perfect job? Of course not! Have all the priests and bishops been perfect? Of course not! Jesus said there would be evil within the walls of the church but that evil WOULD NOT prevail and it hasn't. We have scandal in the Church now but it will not be the end of the Catholic church. There's a little housekeeping going on. It's happened in the past and will no doubt happen again in the future.
If you have read your own history, then you know it’s based on lies and deceit and forgeries and was filled with a hierarchy that swore to their lies, rather then being honest and admitting that no Church or man is infallible in anything.
A quick example is to read in the CE about a Jesuit priest named “Bellarmine,” who ran damage control after pope SixtusV produced and distributed a Bible that came with his Papal Bull, making that edition infallible, and what the Church had to do to rectify it.
The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church will always be here. The gates of hell have not prevailed.
The gates of hell have prevailed many times, but your wealth, and politics, and forged documents, and your staff of highly paid attorneys is what prevailed, not some special protection.
Jesus gave his apostles the power to teach. Why would I not listen to my teachers now? In writings as early as the first century from St. Clement tell me I should. It is not in conflict with what the bible teaches.
Jesus gave HIS apostles power to teach His word, the Bible, not mans philosophies and traditions. The apostle Paul told those that he taught to listen to no man who taught any Gospel other then the one he taught.
He told them to believe no one who claimed to be teaching Paul’s Gospel unless they had several honorable men who would verify that Paul had indeed spoken those words.
Paul authorized no man to teach anything other then what he had been teaching.
2 Tim 2:1-2 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
also Gal 1:8 and 2 Tim 2:1-2
ST. CLEMENT OF ROME
No one knows for sure if the writings credited to Clement of Rome were forgeries or not, but regardless, he said nothing here that authorizes anyone to teach what had not been taught by the apostles, and the only way you know what the apostles taught, is to teach from the inspired scripture.
ST. CYPRIAN (non scriptural) and I have no idea if he was a saint or not.
Cyprian came along at a time when the “church”, the assembly was beginning to be taken over by the powers of the Bishops, and were elbowing their way into becoming the “Church” organization, so I trust nothing he said, and his teaching weren’t even mainline with the Church to begin with.
There are many more examples but know that you consider yourself an historian. I love reading the early Fathers. I am not a history buff, per se. I've lost a few brain cells since I've had children and am lucky if anything sticks! :-) I have no idea the answer to your question about the Old Testament translation. Since I've seen you ask this several times now, I'm assuming you know the answer. So instead of trying to quiz us why don't you just enlighten us?
If healthy brain cells were required, I’d have to quit posting all together, but if you read about “Bellarmine” in your Catholic Encyclopedia, it’ll give you a small preview of some of the things I’ve found concerning the official Latin Vulgate Bible of the Catholic Church. It’s a quick and easy read if you speak Catholic and enjoy convoluted history. Lol
JH :)
As I said above, I want to read them all. Where might I find the others you mention, or what are they called? Thanks.
LOL! The Baptists would be surprised to hear that they are "way out there" and not part of the Church. In fact, the last one I belonged to claimed they were started by the apostles. They claim to be the first new testament Church! How can all of these denominations be the first if they don't recognize each other?
JH-
I don't even know where to begin with you. You said so many ridiculous things in your last post to me that I just want to scream! I really wish you would just quit giving your opinion about the Catholic Church and stick to speaking of your own. I am amazed at your ability to give off the impression that we aren't friendly, are embarrassed about the so called "man-made" rituals, that we have a psuedo-royalty that are apparently self-righteous, our history is full of lies, etc., etc.
You are so messed up in your beliefs about the Church. I feel for you. You are a hurtful person. Even though some of what you said is true, show me an institution or person that is perfect today. The Mass is nothing but Scripture and loving God. I'm sorry you went to Mass with so many preconceptions that you were blinded to the beauty. I hope you give it a chance again sometime. It's worth any temporary discomfort you may have because there's no one standing at the front door waiting to shake your hand. There's more important things going on in the Mass rather than worrying about how you "feel". If you're worried about feeling good about yourself instead of going to worship God and give him all the praise then I imagine your are exactly where you should be.
I can't keep doing this, it's driving my husband crazy. He's not Catholic but even he is sick of all the bashing and myths he sees while reading here. I'm not going to be the one that brings you to the Church. I hope your heart will some day be opened to the possibility.
God Bless you.
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