Posted on 09/21/2004 7:43:13 AM PDT by Tantumergo
"If anything is clear from the above verse it is that blamelessness does not mean "sinless". The people described, while guilty of evil deeds, can still be considered "holy and blameless" through the death of Christ on their behalf."
But what about WITHOUT belief in Christ? Can a man or woman be holy and blameless in spite of his/her sins without belief in Christ?
Job did not believe in Christ when he was blameless.
Zecharaiah and Elizabeth did not believe in Christ when she was blameless.
He had not been conceived yet, let alone born, when they lived (assuming for the sake of discussion that Job was an actual person and not a purely literary figure).
***then it is to you that He gives His own mother.***
And I fully accept Mary in her Biblical role.
But it is a poor marraige that requires the mother-in-law as a mediator between the bride and the groom!
(Even John the Baptist had the sense to back off once he got the bride and groom together...
"The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3)
"Paul, in 2 Tim also the teachings of Jesus as "scripture". Care to see a reference?"
Yes please. Is it 2,12?
***But what about WITHOUT belief in Christ?***
The OT saints look forward to Christ. We look back to Christ.
***Job did not believe in Christ when he was blameless. ***
Job WAS looking forward to Christ and the resurrection.
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"
- Job 19
***Zecharaiah and Elizabeth did not believe in Christ***
They too were looking forward to Christ. That's why Elizebeth was overjoyed to hear of Mary's news. And Zechariah knew of the promise of the coming Messiah.
Remember when in his song he said...
"...He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago)"
They, like Simeon and Anna, other righteous and devout people of the day, were "waiting for the consolation of Israel". Luke 2:25
I agree.
All we know from the scripture is that Joeseph and Mary did not have sex until after Jesus was born. There is nothing "unchaste" or defiling about sex within marriage. The explanation in this article is fairly complicated and does require special knowledge not only about the birth of Mary - which is never addressed in the Bible - but also about the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus in the New Testament.
We Cnristians must believe that Mary was a virgin at the birth of Jesus. The focus is on the miraculous birth of Jesus, that His Father is God and He is the only sinless human being. The facts of the marriage of Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus should be a "disputable matter," not a divisive issue.
In a real nutshell...St. Augustine taught that we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin (in fact through the act of procreation). Augustine wrote in Latin in the 4th century and seems to have been influenced by Tertulian. When his works were translated into Greek around the 14th century, the East rejected the formulation of inherited guilt, retaining the by then tradtitional belief in the East that only the consequences of Adam's sin were inherited, that each person's sins were theirs alone. The doctrine of original sin as seen by the Augustinians is the basis of the Roman dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
If you went to Catholic school a long time ago, the nuns used to teach that a tiny baby which died before baptism couldn't go to heaven because of original sin. The baby's soul went to a place called "Limbo". There was even a prayer for the souls in Limbo. It was a place where otherwise sinless souls went because a soul corrupted by original sin couldn't be in the prescence of God, though this place was not Hell. Original sin was viewed as a blot on the soul, very much a sin carried by a human being even though that human being had nothing to do with it. The soul was washed clean in Baptism.
The Church in the East has never held these views on original sin.
On what basis do you affirm this? What do the actual verses say?
SD
I can see that further discussion is useless because our points of view are so radically different.
I am not going to convince you that you are incorrect, nor you me.
***Yes please. Is it 2,12?***
I'm sorry. I was mistaken. It is actually from 1 Tim 5
"Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
Specifically. "The laborer deserves his wages." which is no where in the OT or Apocrapha.
But is is in Luke 10:7
"... for the laborer deserves his wages."
And with a slight variation in Matt 10:10
"...for the laborer deserves his food."
Paul calls the teachings of Jesus as recorded by Luke and Matthew "Scripture". Not suprising in light of the fact that Peter considered Paul's writings "Scripture". (2 Pet 3:16)
Is the Spirit with the church or is it given to the members of the church? Romans 5:5
In the meantime, I'm going to go on counting each of you who believe in the virgin birth, the sinless life and the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and His resurrection as fellow children of God, fully reconciled to God by God, and *my* brothers and sisters in Him.
Fair enough.
SD
***This is not sin - this is ignorance born of the finite human condition.***
"... For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."
Romans 14:23
(Talk about a verse that exposes your sin!!!)
***Anyway, the Catholics have done away with the concept of inadvertent or unintentional sin (despite the fact that it is quite explicit in the Bible), ***
Whoah! Boy, did you guys ever let yoursleves off the hook!
Do you ever wonder if God is going to judge you based on what the Catholic church says or based on what the Bible says?
What is "sin"?
SD
"That is different from actually committing the sin."
But the punishment is the same. He died for the sins of the world. He (willingly) bore those sins. When He went to the cross and took on the sins of the world, he also accepted the consequences- the wrath of the Father, intense anguish, and physical death.
***What is "sin"?***
Considering the length to which the Bible goes in describing it, I think it would be hard to give a brief answer. Perhaps Pauls word are best...
Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
When we "fall short of the glory of God".
OK. So you feel there is no question of intent in determining our guilt for sin?
By "intent" I mean some taking into consideration a person's capacity to understand and to undertake what he feels is "good" behavior in a situation.
SD
Vicomte13: Does a mother sin when she tells her child not to run away?
No, this would not normally be a sin for a mother. But in your example, the child would definitely be considered sinful for running off and not telling his parents. Since we know that Christ could not have sinned, it eliminates Him as the cause of conflict. Therefore, Mary must have been the cause of conflict.
I also think it interesting that Mary was the one who was doing the supposed discipline. Where was Joseph during this time? Wasn't the father responsible for his children in those days? Was Mary usurping the role of Joseph (i.e. sinning)?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.