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Why do we believe in the Immaculate Conception?
2nd March 2003 | Deacon Augustine

Posted on 09/21/2004 7:43:13 AM PDT by Tantumergo

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To: kosta50
By the same token, Blessed Mary was born mortal -- yet the Church in the West holds that she never died. If she didn't die, she is divine. Yet, we know that she called her Son her Savior.

This isn't what the Church teaches. Mary died, rose from the dead by the Mercy of Christ, and was reunited with her body and taken into Heaven. Elijah was taken while alive, and some hold St. John was taken as well.

Not dying is not the same as being divine.
241 posted on 09/22/2004 10:34:14 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

"If anything is clear from the above verse it is that blamelessness does not mean "sinless". The people described, while guilty of evil deeds, can still be considered "holy and blameless" through the death of Christ on their behalf."

But what about WITHOUT belief in Christ? Can a man or woman be holy and blameless in spite of his/her sins without belief in Christ?

Job did not believe in Christ when he was blameless.
Zecharaiah and Elizabeth did not believe in Christ when she was blameless.
He had not been conceived yet, let alone born, when they lived (assuming for the sake of discussion that Job was an actual person and not a purely literary figure).


242 posted on 09/22/2004 10:34:41 AM PDT by Vicomte13 (Auta i Lome!)
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To: Dominick; kosta50
The Pope's ex catherda teaching on the Assumption doesn't address whether she died or not. However, if you ask most orthodox Catholic theologians, they will tell you that she died.
243 posted on 09/22/2004 10:37:37 AM PDT by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Claud; Tantumergo; PetroniusMaximus; JohnnyM

***then it is to you that He gives His own mother.***

And I fully accept Mary in her Biblical role.

But it is a poor marraige that requires the mother-in-law as a mediator between the bride and the groom!



(Even John the Baptist had the sense to back off once he got the bride and groom together...

"The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3)


244 posted on 09/22/2004 10:41:48 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

"Paul, in 2 Tim also the teachings of Jesus as "scripture". Care to see a reference?"

Yes please. Is it 2,12?


245 posted on 09/22/2004 10:45:21 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Vicomte13

***But what about WITHOUT belief in Christ?***

The OT saints look forward to Christ. We look back to Christ.




***Job did not believe in Christ when he was blameless. ***

Job WAS looking forward to Christ and the resurrection.

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"
- Job 19


***Zecharaiah and Elizabeth did not believe in Christ***

They too were looking forward to Christ. That's why Elizebeth was overjoyed to hear of Mary's news. And Zechariah knew of the promise of the coming Messiah.

Remember when in his song he said...

"...He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago)"

They, like Simeon and Anna, other righteous and devout people of the day, were "waiting for the consolation of Israel". Luke 2:25


246 posted on 09/22/2004 10:54:20 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: asformeandformyhouse

I agree.

All we know from the scripture is that Joeseph and Mary did not have sex until after Jesus was born. There is nothing "unchaste" or defiling about sex within marriage. The explanation in this article is fairly complicated and does require special knowledge not only about the birth of Mary - which is never addressed in the Bible - but also about the "brothers and sisters" of Jesus in the New Testament.

We Cnristians must believe that Mary was a virgin at the birth of Jesus. The focus is on the miraculous birth of Jesus, that His Father is God and He is the only sinless human being. The facts of the marriage of Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus should be a "disputable matter," not a divisive issue.


247 posted on 09/22/2004 10:55:48 AM PDT by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: Vicomte13

In a real nutshell...St. Augustine taught that we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin (in fact through the act of procreation). Augustine wrote in Latin in the 4th century and seems to have been influenced by Tertulian. When his works were translated into Greek around the 14th century, the East rejected the formulation of inherited guilt, retaining the by then tradtitional belief in the East that only the consequences of Adam's sin were inherited, that each person's sins were theirs alone. The doctrine of original sin as seen by the Augustinians is the basis of the Roman dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

If you went to Catholic school a long time ago, the nuns used to teach that a tiny baby which died before baptism couldn't go to heaven because of original sin. The baby's soul went to a place called "Limbo". There was even a prayer for the souls in Limbo. It was a place where otherwise sinless souls went because a soul corrupted by original sin couldn't be in the prescence of God, though this place was not Hell. Original sin was viewed as a blot on the soul, very much a sin carried by a human being even though that human being had nothing to do with it. The soul was washed clean in Baptism.

The Church in the East has never held these views on original sin.


248 posted on 09/22/2004 11:02:58 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: UsnDadof8
What it amounts to is that you deny 2 tim 3:16 speaks to the sufficiency of all scripture, which I affirm,

On what basis do you affirm this? What do the actual verses say?

SD

249 posted on 09/22/2004 11:05:15 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
You must have missed this part of my post

I can see that further discussion is useless because our points of view are so radically different.

I am not going to convince you that you are incorrect, nor you me.

250 posted on 09/22/2004 11:09:08 AM PDT by UsnDadof8 (Proud Virginian)
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To: Tantumergo; UsnDadof8

***Yes please. Is it 2,12?***

I'm sorry. I was mistaken. It is actually from 1 Tim 5

"Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."


Specifically. "The laborer deserves his wages." which is no where in the OT or Apocrapha.


But is is in Luke 10:7
"... for the laborer deserves his wages."


And with a slight variation in Matt 10:10
"...for the laborer deserves his food."


Paul calls the teachings of Jesus as recorded by Luke and Matthew "Scripture". Not suprising in light of the fact that Peter considered Paul's writings "Scripture". (2 Pet 3:16)


251 posted on 09/22/2004 11:09:16 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Stubborn

Is the Spirit with the church or is it given to the members of the church? Romans 5:5

In the meantime, I'm going to go on counting each of you who believe in the virgin birth, the sinless life and the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and His resurrection as fellow children of God, fully reconciled to God by God, and *my* brothers and sisters in Him.


252 posted on 09/22/2004 11:12:31 AM PDT by hocndoc (Choice is the # 1 killer in the US)
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To: UsnDadof8
I am not going to convince you that you are incorrect, nor you me.

Fair enough.

SD

253 posted on 09/22/2004 11:16:05 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Tantumergo; visually_augmented

***This is not sin - this is ignorance born of the finite human condition.***



"... For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

Romans 14:23


(Talk about a verse that exposes your sin!!!)


254 posted on 09/22/2004 11:16:32 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Vicomte13

***Anyway, the Catholics have done away with the concept of inadvertent or unintentional sin (despite the fact that it is quite explicit in the Bible), ***

Whoah! Boy, did you guys ever let yoursleves off the hook!

Do you ever wonder if God is going to judge you based on what the Catholic church says or based on what the Bible says?


255 posted on 09/22/2004 11:22:03 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
So there is no question of intent in determining someone's guilt for sin?

What is "sin"?

SD

256 posted on 09/22/2004 11:24:57 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: frog_jerk_2004

"That is different from actually committing the sin."

But the punishment is the same. He died for the sins of the world. He (willingly) bore those sins. When He went to the cross and took on the sins of the world, he also accepted the consequences- the wrath of the Father, intense anguish, and physical death.


257 posted on 09/22/2004 11:25:24 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: SoothingDave

***What is "sin"?***


Considering the length to which the Bible goes in describing it, I think it would be hard to give a brief answer. Perhaps Pauls word are best...

Romans 3:23
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

When we "fall short of the glory of God".


258 posted on 09/22/2004 11:34:11 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
When we "fall short of the glory of God".

OK. So you feel there is no question of intent in determining our guilt for sin?

By "intent" I mean some taking into consideration a person's capacity to understand and to undertake what he feels is "good" behavior in a situation.

SD

259 posted on 09/22/2004 11:40:51 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Vicomte13

Vicomte13: Does a mother sin when she tells her child not to run away?

No, this would not normally be a sin for a mother. But in your example, the child would definitely be considered sinful for running off and not telling his parents. Since we know that Christ could not have sinned, it eliminates Him as the cause of conflict. Therefore, Mary must have been the cause of conflict.

I also think it interesting that Mary was the one who was doing the supposed discipline. Where was Joseph during this time? Wasn't the father responsible for his children in those days? Was Mary usurping the role of Joseph (i.e. sinning)?


260 posted on 09/22/2004 11:44:09 AM PDT by visually_augmented (I was blind, but now I see)
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