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Ultimatum for Catholics [Phoenix & elsewhere]
AZ central.com | August 2, 2004 | Dennis Kavanaugh

Posted on 08/03/2004 9:43:49 AM PDT by Phx_RC

We have yet another disturbing story about an apparent crackdown by some Catholic bishops on lay Catholic activities.
. . . [snip]

Does this mean I am unworthy to continue my lay ministry as a lector?
. . . [snip]

What does our new bishop think about Bishop Vasa's ultimatum?


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholic; churchteachings; dissent; liberals; olmsted; vasa
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Dennis Kavanaugh is the Vice-mayor of the City of Mesa. Full article here.

Thanks Dennis! For your invitation to Bishop Olmsted and to bishops everywhere to present a "teaching moment".

Truly this article, despite its attitude, is useful in that it is expected that Catholics and others in Phoenix will soon have an opportunity to learn some more about the Catholic Faith.

Call-To-Action member[?], politician, and lector Kavanaugh is referring to documents found here.

Kavanaugh ought to download, print, and take with him a copy of "Giving Testimony to the Truth" to study and reflect upon in the Presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle or Perpetual Adoration chapel at a nearby parish.

Bishop Vasa has taken great care to present what the Church teaches about these issues and why it is important for all Catholics to accept. The content is presented so well that after reading and reflection, it seems reasonable to expect that the love a faithful Catholic has for the Church and such a good bishop can only be further enhanced and deepened.

1 posted on 08/03/2004 9:43:51 AM PDT by Phx_RC
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To: saradippity; TotusTuus; Jeff Chandler; kstewskis; IrishRainy; joma; AAABEST; dubyaismypresident; ...

Ping.


2 posted on 08/03/2004 10:15:48 AM PDT by Phx_RC (God bless brave and holy bishops.)
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To: Phx_RC

I expect there will be quite a few that feel like Mr. Kavanaugh.

Memo to Mr. Kavanaugh: If I was expected while in RCIA not to take Communion, if I was expected to give assent without reservation to all the Church's teachings before I was receieved, and so on, then why does Mr. Kavanaugh have heartburn when his bishop makes clear what's what (rhetorical question). People in leadership positions in the Church, laity or otherwise, should be able to give assent without reservation to the whole counsel of the Church. If not, then the honorable thing to do is resign until they can. Why be a stumbling block and scandal to others (another rhetorical question). I guess the cafeteria and lite types (less filling and does not taste great) aren't happy that the bishop is now expecting them to be Catholics. Well, Mr. K, if the Church expected me to abide by certain things when I was a non-Catholic Christian during the process of my instruction, then it is only fair that your bishop expects you to be Catholic and not cafeteria-lite (less filling and does not taste great). Oh, and Mr. K, one more thing. Just to make sure you and your kind understand, I did not cross the Tiber because of the witness of you and your kind. No sir, Mr. K., I crossed rather in spite of you and your kind.

Signed - A Virginian newly Catholic despite people like you, Mr. Kavanaugh.


3 posted on 08/03/2004 10:23:28 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (tired of shucking and jiving)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Well said, Convert.

May God bless the Church with a multitude of true believers who are happily willing to embrace all that the Church holds up to be True - as you clearly are.


4 posted on 08/03/2004 10:37:59 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Fides et Ratio)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Well said.


5 posted on 08/03/2004 10:45:32 AM PDT by Jaded ((Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain))
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To: Notwithstanding; Convert from ECUSA
Well said, Convert.

I second that. Now if I could only get my formerly Catholic now ECUSA sister to see the light!

Bishop Robert Vasa of the Diocese of Baker, headquartered in Bend, Oregon recently issued an ultimatum for lay ministers and cantors that if they want to keep their volunteer jobs, they must completely accept all of the church's teachings opposing abortion, contraception, gay relationships and other issues. Will we be next?

Um, isn't this what Catholics are supposed to do? One wouldn't join a shooting club because you were opposed to guns?? For example, one typically joins a club or group because one shares and acknowledges and believes in their values and teachings, not because they don't!!! Of course, partly rhetorical, because so many people seem bent on changing the Church to suit them and forcing others to accept their changes!

I have served as a lector at my parish for nine years. I have questions and doubts about a number of church teachings, as do many Catholic lay people, particularly in America.

This is really part of the problem, all summed up neatly for us. I wonder how many 'Catholics' are shaking their heads in agreement with him? I personally know several, educators, and EEM's and lectors who openly disagree on church teaching and oppose any directives our pastor attempts to give them.

6 posted on 08/03/2004 10:55:54 AM PDT by fortunecookie (VOTE Bush-Cheney '04)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

wonderful, thank you!


7 posted on 08/03/2004 10:59:25 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Phx_RC; father_elijah; nickcarraway; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; attagirl; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

8 posted on 08/03/2004 11:00:53 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Phx_RC

I suggest that Mr. Kavanaugh attend either a RCIA class or a Welcome Home, Catholics class and find out some of the answers to his questions.

Obviously the Jesuits didn't do a thorough job while he was in college!


9 posted on 08/03/2004 11:02:54 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Phx_RC
Does this mean I am unworthy to continue my lay ministry as a lector? . . . [snip]

On it's face I dunno.

Call-To-Action member[?], politician, and lector Kavanaugh is referring to documents found here.

If I knew a lector was in CTA, I would say yes, that person is unfit to read the word of God to the Catholic Parish on Sunday, because this person holds positions that are heterodox. I would have the same problem with someone who holds Pro-Choice opinons.
10 posted on 08/03/2004 11:06:59 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Phx_RC
Does this mean I am unworthy to continue my lay ministry as a lector? . . . [snip]

On it's face I dunno.

Call-To-Action member[?], politician, and lector Kavanaugh is referring to documents found here.

If I knew a lector was in CTA, I would say yes, that person is unfit to read the word of God to the Catholic Parish on Sunday, because this person holds positions that are heterodox. I would have the same problem with someone who holds Pro-Choice opinons.
11 posted on 08/03/2004 11:07:04 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Phx_RC
Oooh, another 'disturbing crackdown' on the poor wittle heterodox radicals who are only trying to tear down the Church from the inside. Bad, Bishops. Bad!

Lord Jesus, send us strong and faithful shepherds!
12 posted on 08/03/2004 11:21:44 AM PDT by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces †)
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To: Phx_RC
Still more from the unaware-they're-not-Catholic wing of the Catholic Church. Let's look at the condition he finds so shocking:

"Oregon recently issued an ultimatum for lay ministers and cantors that if they want to keep their volunteer jobs, they must completely accept all of the church's teachings opposing abortion, contraception, gay relationships and other issues."
Peeling away the verbal ornamentation, we are left with a puzzling accusation. The diocese is seemingly requiring Catholics to accept the Church's teachings. That's no different than requiring Buddhists to believe in Buddha, Muslims to believe in the Koran, or Elvis impersonators to believe in rhinestone studded jumpsuits. A rather low bar of admission. The only problem these modern Catholics are having with it is that in certain areas they don't accept the Church's teachings, haven't for a long time, and in the free-for-all era of the past 30 years, no one thought to mention that it is indeed possible for beliefs to carry one outside the Church.

And there is also this enlightening comment:

I studied theology as part of my courses at St. Louis University. The Jesuits there taught me to have an inquiring mind on religious issues. I have my own thoughts and opinions. Does this mean I am unworthy to continue my lay ministry as a lector?
Can't tell if he's being intentionally duplicitous, or if he's really that clueless.

The Church has always allowed questioning of its teachings. The problem comes when, on the basis of one's questions, one refuses to submit to the Church's authority on matters of Faith. Like the issues of "abortion, contraception, gay relationships" which so concern Mr. Kavanaugh, the question of whether or not one accepts the authority of the Magesterium is a basic teaching of the faith. Reject it, and you are not a Catholic, no matter how many other parts of Catholicism you accept.

13 posted on 08/03/2004 11:25:00 AM PDT by Snuffington
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To: fortunecookie
One wouldn't join a shooting club because you were opposed to guns??

You would if you wanted to spread your poison form within...

14 posted on 08/03/2004 11:33:21 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: Phx_RC; Jeff Chandler; kstewskis; TotusTuus; All

Please keep the Bishop and all of our good orthodox priests in your prayers right now. I get dribs and drabs of information and the "usual suspects" are hard at work. Thanks for the article phx_RC. I'll try to get back later today.


15 posted on 08/03/2004 11:43:22 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Phx_RC

Mr. Kavanaugh, ther bishop is trying to protect you!


16 posted on 08/03/2004 11:44:11 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: conservonator
You would if you wanted to spread your poison form within...

Exactly, and they are proud of this 'infiltration' and their imagined cleverness, said while sadly shaking head...

17 posted on 08/03/2004 11:50:56 AM PDT by fortunecookie (VOTE Bush-Cheney '04)
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To: Salvation
Obviously the Jesuits didn't do a thorough job while he was in college!

If he were attending a Jeb college anytime AFTER 1960, he deserves a refund for the Theo/Phil courses he took.

And most likely for the Masses he attended, as well.

18 posted on 08/03/2004 12:16:21 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: conservonator
You would if you wanted to spread your poison form within...

THAT would be fun to watch.

Serious gun-people are a lot more rock-ribbed in their beliefs than most Catholic priests and Bishops, not to mention laity.

19 posted on 08/03/2004 12:19:03 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Convert from ECUSA
Keep the faith.

The errors I see on Sunday by the laity are bad. EXTRA Eucharist Ministers going into the Blessed Sacrament Tabernacle to get communion out. Servers not genuflecting of bowing in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Gift bearers bringing up the hosts and wine in midi skirts that are so short you can see whatever. Communicants chewing gum on way to receive (our priest put a notice in the bulletin but only about 25% read the bulletin.

Never a bow by anyone during the Confession of faith...and more things than I want to post
20 posted on 08/03/2004 12:24:50 PM PDT by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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