Posted on 07/04/2004 9:29:46 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
I could be wrong, but I am under the impression that the Catholic Church is firmly against the use of fertility drugs.
From a USCCB document, Begotten Not Made: A Catholic View of Reproductive Technology , comes these reasonable statements:
Donum Vitae teaches that if a given medical intervention helps or assists the marriage act to achieve pregnancy, it may be considered moral; if the intervention replaces the marriage act in order to engender life, it is not moral.
Any number of morally acceptable interventions may be used to overcome infertility. For example, surgery can overcome tubal blockages in the male or female reproductive system which prevent fertilization from taking place. Fertility drugs may also be used, with the caution that large multiple pregnancies may put mother and infants at risk. There are also many ways of tracking natural reproductive rhythms to enhance the chances for achieving pregnancy. The Pope Paul VI Institute at Creighton University in Omaha, Nebraska has been successful in helping couples overcome infertility using natural methods.
As usual, this article is well researched and written and provides a truly traditional Catholic path in the area of begetting children, whether it be through NFP or providential means. The point is that couples should never accuse other couples of unfaithfulness to the Church, and that those who claim that NFP is "heresy" have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. They help to paint all traditional Catholics with a broad brush and are really utterly clueless.
Pretty sweeping statement. I guess it's time to lay off John Kerry.
those who claim that NFP is "heresy" have absolutely no idea what they are talking about
I suppose you can make that claim when you create a straw man opponent as Fr. Harrison did. But in the real world, people like Polycarp who have woken up to the problems with NFP are the ones who know what they're talking about.
They help to paint all traditional Catholics with a broad brush and are really utterly clueless.
LOL -- at least you're not painting with a broad brush! Actually, this has been an unusually constructive and productive discussion, at least until someone jumped in at post #103 and started making comments about others being "really utterly clueless."
"Firmly" would be an exaggeration. As Polycarp pointed out, the USCCB has come out in favor of fertility drugs, but then no one pays any attention to what they say anyway.
There is clearly a moral problem with fertility drugs, and the excerpt from the USCCB document posted by Polycarp mentions it obliquely, which is that "selective reduction" (i.e. abortion) is an integral part of the technology. The drugs inevitably cause multiple pregnancies, and the procedure assumes that you will "reduce" the number of fetuses. A Catholic could claim that they will refuse to cooperate with the "reduction" process, but they might be forced to deceive the doctors, if no graver sins are involved.
That said, medications to improve the chances of conception are not inherently immoral, even if the current state of the technology requires participation in a process in which abortion is considered an integral part.
You just contradicted your own post. "the Catholic Church is firmly against the use of fertility drugs" The Catholic Church is not firmly against all fertility drugs.
Then you said,
"Fertility drugs may also be used, with the caution that large multiple pregnancies may put mother and infants at risk. There are also many ways of tracking natural reproductive rhythms to enhance the chances for achieving pregnancy. "
I never said every form of helping a woman achieve fertility was OK by the Catholic Church. The Church gives a caution against these kinds of drugs but does not forbid them. Now the Church is against the euphemism of "selective reduction" which is the destruction of one of the multiple embryos so that the remaining few will have a better chance. I am 100 percent pro life with NO exceptions. If a fertility drug for instance was known to cause blood clots and kill women the Church would be against it. Personally I wouldn't take these fertility drugs but I am not in that position. I have several children.
They permit it not necessarily in favor of it.
Read my post 106. I think people are getting confused and there is no reason to be.
Actually, that is only with the risky high dose regimen of the fertility drugs. Normal doses of Clomid for instance do not cause a high number of high multiple births.
"selective reduction" is usually only part of the off label, high dose regimen.
I'm no "expert" but I am a doctor and an NFP instructor and I've been published in national Catholic periodicals on this and related issues. This is one subject I'm not very confused about.
About three percent of women on clomiphene have a multiple pregnancy, usually twins, compared with about one percent in the general population.
And I never said any such thing. I think that doctrine is an abomination.
As for labeling Catholics "heretics" -- technically that may be true. But I am equally a "schismatic". So, what's worse, to stay in the original church, just because it's the original -- and force oneself to ignore contradictions at the cost of one's honesty -- or follow the whole truth (as best as one understands it) even if it takes one outside the "fold" (a decision that made my great-nth-grandfather a hunted fugutive)? I'm really not comfortable with either choice, actually, so I'm not inclined to cast stones at people who split the doctrinal hairs the other way.
But one thing I AM sure of: those of us (Catholic, Evangelical, and Orthodox) who take Scripture as morally authoritative, can and should stand shoulder to shoulder in the culture war against the babykillers, sodomites, divorce promoters, and those who would have us contracept ourselves into extinction. Once upon a time I might have written you a 10 page post on my reasons for abandoning my mom's Catholicism and going back to my paternal ancestor's fundamentalism, but right now there are MORE IMPORTANT issues to worry about.
"the Catholic Church is firmly against the use of fertility drugs"
They permit it and some theologians discourage it.The Catholic Church is not firmly against all fertility drugs. Don't get me wrong I DON'T like fertility drugs I think they pose a big risk.
Then you said,
"Fertility drugs may also be used, with the caution that large multiple pregnancies may put mother and infants at risk. There are also many ways of tracking natural reproductive rhythms to enhance the chances for achieving pregnancy. "
Why can not you admit you were wrong in stating "the Catholic Church is firmly against the use of fertility drugs" You made a blanket statement and it is not accurate look at this bottom statement you made and then compair it to your statement at the top. The bottom one you say that these drugs "may" be used and in the top statement you say the Catholic Church is firmly against them. I already said that they may be against some individual medications of fertility drugs but the principle of taking a fertility drug is NOT condemned as long as the marital act is performed and the drug does not have a long standing study of harm to the woman. The Church condemns articial insemination and invetro fertilization but you will not see a condemnation of fertility meds which simply enhance ovulation or hormones etc. You read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and it does not condemn per say drugs which enhance fertility. Of course the Church warns of the problems connected with this. I have family in the medical field- doctors and nurses and what I say is accurate. Read my posts. The Church "condemns" selective reduction not fertility drugs per say. The Church condemns artificial insemination and invetro fertilization but NOT fertility meds. That is a fact. Do not misrepresent what the Church teaches. There may be some Catholics on this site who have taken fertility meds then they see what you say that the "Catholic Church is firmly against fertility" drugs and they start getting upset for no reason because it is not true. Are there some theologians with their private judgement who are against fertility meds- yes, are there some priests- yes but is the magesterium of the church against the use of fertility meds to enhance fertility- NO. My sister in law took fertility meds there are some that are less dangerous than others. Could there be one particular type of fertility med that the Church has warned could be dangerous yes. But the principle of fertility meds is not against Church teaching, as say the principle of invetro fertilization. Facts are facts. Read your first post.
No there is not. There is nothing more important than being in the Church that Christ founded it is the one ark of salvation as the early Church fathers have stated and without it you can not be saved. God loves us all and he wants us all to be saved but many refuse him.
Read my post I never said you ever thought of the abominable example of the Masonic principle. I was simply making a statement. I go by what Pope St. Pius XI said in Mortalium Animus that Catholics may not join large concourses of pan religions for some social or religious purpose like world peace because they do not all agree on the basic truths and Church which Christ established.
You sound confused. What are you a schismatic from if you don't believe that the original Church which Christ founded but has developed into a larger tree from the young sapling it once was?
Catholics love scripture and accept it as the innerent word of God. If you don't believe in the authority of the first Pope and you think that he was not infallible as to what he said pertaining to faith and morals then why do you believe the epistle that he wrote is the infallible word of God? If you deny the papacy you deny what Christ said in Matt 16:18-19 and Jn 21:17. We might not always like what Peter does but he is our spiritual father and the Vicar of Christ on earth. Paul had to rebuke Peter but that does not mean he denied his authority as the vicar of Christ.
You brought your Mom up for a reason- perhaps she is praying for you to return to the faith if she is living on earth or if she has passed on- God willing from Heaven. "There are not one hundred people in this world who hate Catholicism, but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be." -Archbishop Fulton Sheen
If ever you want to convince me that Catholicism is wrong just drop me a line. You seem to have many Catholic beliefs so this is perhaps the foundation that your mom gave you. We really don't give our mom's the credit that they deserve. A plug for moms and a plug for our Lady- Holy Mary Mother of God who was as the angel Gabrial called her full of Grace. Read Rev. 12 :17. God bless you and I mean only goodness in what I said to you.
Again, I quoted another poster who made that incorrect statement, I never said it!!! I simply quoted Hermann the Cherusker and I disagreed with him!
So then I posted a reply to his quote that corrected Hermann the Cherusker's incorrect statement with a document from the USCCB.
You need to read and follow the debate more carefully before accusing others of dishonesty.
You made a blanket statement and it is not accurate look at this bottom statement you made and then compair it to your statement at the top.
It was NOT my statement at the top!!! It was a quote from Hermann the Cherusker which I refuted using my statement at the bottom. If you can't follow the mode of quoting used on this Forum, don't stick your foot in your mouth like this, just be quiet.
Why do you have to be so persistently annoying and stupid? How many times does Polycarp have to explain that I wrote the line you keep quoting (and I caveated it with "it is my impression"), not him?
Stop attacking him, okay? You are just making yourself look like a doofus.
The Pope said that NFP could be used in a selfish way for the couple to close themselves off from life. There is no question about it. However it is not in its nature intrinsically evil as is artificial contraception.
Sorry, I was wrong in thinking you were contradicting yourself. I got confused with the italics as being applied to Hermann the Cherusker. If I can ask a "stupid" question. When I write these posts I place it on my word processor first and try to get the italics there OK but I can't seem to figure it how to make it italic on the post. Even if I write it on the little box the forum provides I can't click control I to make it italic. Can you give me a tip? I apologize for my mistake. I am new to this forum so I don’t know the ins and outs.
No problem.
The best way to show you the html code for doing italics is for you to simply right click on any of the text of this page (excluding active links) then choose "View Source."
It will open up the html code for the entire page you are viewing in your web browser in MS Word or Word Pad or NotePad.
Scroll down to this post, and look at the html code used here to make these words appear in italics.
Let me know if this works.
God Bless.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.