Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Restore the Old Mass
Inside the Vatican ^ | May 4, 2004 | Robert Moynihan

Posted on 06/04/2004 11:27:13 PM PDT by ultima ratio

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 321-322 next last

1 posted on 06/04/2004 11:27:14 PM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio

What was it all for--the endless changes, the destruction, the alienation of millions, the collapse of faith everywhere? The Novus Ordo makes no sense at all.


2 posted on 06/05/2004 12:10:01 AM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
"What was it all for--the endless changes"

Pure and simple - For the destruction of the last vestige of God's Church on earth.

It has been a systematic destruction, all planned from the very beginning by those with an agenda, operating from within the Church. From the list of culprits you can pick from Communists, Marxists, Masons, Protestants, any one of which would consider it their 'sacred' duty to make the Church 'right.' Has anybody read the book "AA-1025"?

Hopefully it was all allowed by God to seperate the sheep fom the goats.

As I've said before, I wouldn't want the Church to unilaterally revert to the Tridentine Mass. I would prefer it to be a choice, so that the goats can stay where it makes them happy.

3 posted on 06/05/2004 8:20:19 AM PDT by Arguss
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Diago; narses; Loyalist; BlackElk; american colleen; saradippity; Dajjal; Land of the Irish; ...

This is a very important article. Here we see one more "conciliar Catholic" coming around to realize the importance of tradition. I'm pretty sure that "Inside the Vatican" is one of Fr. Fessio's publications, and he has always been in favor of the "reform of the reform." I once supported that position also, but like the author of this article, I eventually came to realize that the traditional Latin Mass is the only solution. As Moynihan says, the problem is the New Mass itself. No amount of documents attempting to correct various abuses will ever be able to alter the fact that it is inherently deficient.

I believe this may have been posted once already, but there were so many active threads at the time that it was overlooked and didn't get any response. It deserves to be read and discussed, especially by those "conciliar Catholics" who are still on the fence.


4 posted on 06/05/2004 10:01:41 AM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
I am an outsider on this issue. We Orthodox have not changed our traditional service since St. Chrysostom (which shortened it from four hours to about an hour and a half), going back to the late 4th century AD (that's 1,600 years!) and we use vernacular language in the Divine Liturgy.

Would it be possible for the Roman Catholics to agree to return to the Traditional Mass and retain a mix of Latin and vernacular in the service as a compromise?

One thing is not clear to me and possibly even to many Roman Cahtolics: what was wrong with the Tridentine Mass and why was it changed?

5 posted on 06/05/2004 10:27:30 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian

There is no such thing as a "conciliar Catholic", but only Catholics. Your use of the term demonstrates a schismatic mindset.


6 posted on 06/05/2004 10:29:34 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: Unam Sanctam
There is no such thing as a "conciliar Catholic", but only Catholics.

Like the Chi-Com CPA church?

8 posted on 06/05/2004 10:42:56 AM PDT by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
Thanks for the ping; it's a succinct and excellent piece. Here are the portions that I found salient, and/or worrisome:

The problem is that the new Mass attracts and "enables" abuses because it was intentionally shaped to diminish the "transcendent" and emphasize the "profane" dimension.

This is a statement one would never have thought to be justified in making, but it's absolutely true and most disheartening.

The alternative has become the norm, and the perennial liturgy of the Latin West is celebrated in only a few chapels here and there, almost furtively, as if in hiding, as if in a time of persecution.

This is also true, but I would say that we as Traditional Catholics should do our best to confront those who would seek to marginalize us in a very forceful way. IOW, let us never feel ashamed, and let us take on those who wish to promulgate the notion that we are somehow backwoods people in this regard with a vehemence that makes them realize we are not content to fiddle while the Church burns .

Let us preserve from oblivion the beautiful and holy liturgy which we inherited from our forefathers, that our posterity may thank us for having the courage to do what is fitting and just in an age of iron and lead.

This is beautifully worded because it reflects the majesty and beauty of the Old Liturgy and ties in to my point about not allowing the opponents of the Old Liturgy to rest. The new liturgy has turned the Mass into a performance piece, applause and all, and hasn't the power to inspire, even when then the intention to inspire is there.

9 posted on 06/05/2004 10:43:15 AM PDT by AlbionGirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam; Maximilian

Rome itself has admonished traditional Catholics for not thinking along the lines of the "conciliar Church"--revealing the true mindset of postconciliar modernist prelates who separate themselves from the previous two millenia of the Church's existence. The Pope has constantly spoken of a "New Advent" or a "New Pentecost"--as if the Church could start all over from scratch. He very seldom alludes to his preconciliar predecessors--and has spent his pontificate apologizing for imagined preconciliar Church offenses. Cardinal Hoyos of Ecclesia Dei used the term "conciliar Church" frequently in his correspondence with FSSP priests.


10 posted on 06/05/2004 11:41:01 AM PDT by ultima ratio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Arguss

Very good points - agreed 100%. But I will go one step further: remember in AA-1025 that the basic ocnept of the plan for autodestruction from within was the need to find willing candidates for ordination who would be moles ripe for use, who would willing ly carry out such plans. Well, if the recent crisis in the church in the USA has taught us anything, that group of candidates are known as gay priests. For a gay man the priesthood is a perfect cover - social repectablility, super comfortable lifestyle with many creature comforts, a feeling of status and superiority which they crave (giving them relief from feelings of inadequecy due to their unresolved inner spiritual conflict caused by their homosexuality), and lots of money to play with. Now add to this the capacity of their superiors to blackmail them with the common knowledge that they are gay (to keep them in line, working for the sutodestruction agenda, and oyu have the perfect servitors of evil. Add to this the fact that the traditional mass and sacraments, doctrine/dogmas are inimical to their "lifestyle", and gross departure from the truth is a guaranteed result. One only needs to view the state of the church in this light to understand the mechanics of how this has happened over the past 40 years. The gay priest will certainly not want a return to true Catholic faith and practice, much less to the old mass, as it would force him to confront his sins!


11 posted on 06/05/2004 11:47:54 AM PDT by thor76
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: kosta50
"what was wrong with the Tridentine Mass and why was it changed?"

As far as I know, nothing was wrong with it. I never heard a single Catholic complain about it. I keep hearing that it was changed so that Catholics would participate in the Mass. But the dialogue Mass had already been introduced and people were participating. To this day I don't really understand the reasons for the change.
12 posted on 06/05/2004 1:08:36 PM PDT by k omalley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: k omalley; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ..

Ping.


13 posted on 06/05/2004 1:16:14 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
It deserves to be read and discussed, especially by those "conciliar Catholics" who are still on the fence.

Well, like optional celibacy, it can "discussed" til the cows come home, but the Novus Ordo is not going to be suppressed in your lifetime.

Rather, you should work and pray for a Tridentine Rite, with an apostolic administration.

This would have already happened had not Fellay and crowd sabotaged it with their "all-or-nothing" demands on the Holy Father.

14 posted on 06/05/2004 1:20:21 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: ultima ratio
I am persuaded that the restoration of the old Mass would be a "festival day," a day of universal celebration and, as such, would mark the beginning of a great renewal in Church life."

What on earth is Moynihan smokin'?

Ninety-eight percent of the world's bishops would oppose this, vigorously.

15 posted on 06/05/2004 1:22:43 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur; ultima ratio

"Ninety-eight percent of the world's bishops would oppose this, vigorously."

How many are sodomites or enablers of same?


16 posted on 06/05/2004 1:26:04 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: thor76
Add to this the fact that the traditional mass and sacraments, doctrine/dogmas are inimical to their "lifestyle", and gross departure from the truth is a guaranteed result.

I have to laugh at this.

It's as if, like a spigot, gayness in the priesthood was manifest only after Vatican II.

If you think this, you are simply not fortunate enough to know any Catholics over 70, who can raise the hair on the back of your neck with stories of priests in the 40s and 50s. Gay priests who were more or less discreet in their encounters with young men.

Associating sexual abuse with the Novus Ordo is another of the heinous and bogus tactics of some traditionalists who are hell-bent to convince some very gullible Catholics that the Holy Spirit disappeared after Vatican II.

17 posted on 06/05/2004 1:34:12 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: narses
How many are sodomites or enablers of same?

I thought you knew, narses.

All bishops are fey. It's a requirement for the job.

18 posted on 06/05/2004 1:35:20 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
I remember that there were some "funny" priests pre-VII. My husband was an altar boy and says that one of his priests liked the altar boys too much and was "sent away" by monsignor. Probably to another parish.

But, OTOH, did you ever hear a pre-VII priest, bishop, or cardinal openly defend the gay lifestyle? Did you ever hear a Cardinal publicly announce to practicing gays "come one, come all to Communion!" If this had happened I think the Holy Father would have dealt with the situation quite swiftly! I am waiting with baited breath to see if the Vatican reacts to Mahoney.
19 posted on 06/05/2004 1:46:40 PM PDT by k omalley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: k omalley
Did you ever hear a Cardinal publicly announce to practicing gays "come one, come all to Communion!"

Of course not. And Mahoney has much to answer for, not least of which is the construction of that monstrosity of a Cathedral.

However, it is simply ridiculous to claim that only after 1965 did homosexual men find a receptive home in the Catholic priesthood.

20 posted on 06/05/2004 1:53:43 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 321-322 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson