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A New Song
KJOS Ministries ^ | October 22, 2003 | Paul Proctor

Posted on 05/16/2004 4:44:02 PM PDT by hiho hiho

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1 posted on 05/16/2004 4:44:03 PM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho
I would suggest to Pastor Warren that if ACDC were to provide the worship music at his church next Sunday morning, very few of his worshippers would be able to ascertain whether the lyrics were “Christian” or not due to the sheer decibel level created by the instrumentation alone.

Amen to that. You probably have a "Contemporary Christian" radio station in your area. You can't tell some of that music from AC/DC.

Hillsongs is about the most acid Christian music I can take.

2 posted on 05/16/2004 5:10:06 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all)
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To: hiho hiho

I should start out by saying I don't like rock 'n roll in the worship service. At our church we have one "contemporary" service and two "traditional" services. We've only attended the contemporary service once and did not like it at all. I have taken my son to Christian concerts but never substituted this for the worship service.

That being said one must be careful to not lay their own prejudices on how others worship. We may recall the story of David and Micah where, when Micah saw David dancing before the Lord, she "despised" him because she didn't think that is how someone in his position should act. In the end she die a lonely, childless woman.

While the author may have what appears to be "sound" reasoning, I think it is wrong to transfer what you feel comfortable with to what others may feed comfortable with. Whether we eat or drink do all for the glory of God.


3 posted on 05/16/2004 5:21:10 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: HarleyD

"I think it is wrong to transfer what you feel comfortable with to what others may feed comfortable with".

I fear that this is the same logic used by Vicky Robinson and company. Everything is not a matter of experince or comfort.

God does not speak through the windsorm or thunder, but through a still small voice -- the question is can we hear his voice over the rock band?


"Whether we eat or drink do all for the glory of God".

whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think upon these things!


4 posted on 05/16/2004 5:48:16 PM PDT by hiho hiho (+)
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To: hiho hiho

I think you're absolutely right in the "danger" of what you feel comfortable with. I find it difficult to disagree because I too feel that there is an "entertainment" quality in rock 'n roll during worship service that I don't like.

However, I have attended many various types of churches from Pentecostal to "soul" churches to Roman Catholic and on and on and on-all over the world. There have been more than a few times I have felt unconfortable with the music and/or the method of preaching. (Try attending a "holy roller" Pentacostal church sometime.) That doesn't make it wrong just because it's not my cup of tea.

Because we're all different and it is God desire to save His elect I actually think this is one of the reasons there are so many types of churches and worship services. You have to be discerning. When I got to know the people it didn't take long to discern their genuine love (or in some cases non-love) for God. I haven't even meant Mr. Robinson but I can discern what his feelings are.


5 posted on 05/16/2004 6:15:33 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: hiho hiho; All
Warren had this to say: "Loud, raucous music with a driving beat is the kind of music his folks listened to."

This is a blatant lie! This quote is not from Rick Warren but is by Dennis Costella in an article he did in 1998 on the church growth movement. A six year old article in which Paul Proctor seems to have gotten all of his information about Rick Warren from. See The Church Growth Movement

But, you know, as sad and revealing as these remarks are -- nothing prepared me for the following statement from Pastor Warren:
"To insist that all good music came from Europe 200 years ago; there's a name for that - racism."

There is a name for what Paul Proctor has done here, and it is called bearing false witness. This statement leads you to believe that Proctor himself was a witness to this quote - when in fact he was not. That is intellectual dishonesty. But then he has the audacity to change Warren's words, yet he puts them within quotation marks as if that were exactly what Warren had said. My friends this is an out and out right lie by Proctor! The original quote from Warren is:

"You see folks, to insist that all good music came from Europe 200 years ago is thinly veiled racism, if you want to be truthful about it. It's cultural elitism saying that all the good music was written 200 years ago in Europe.... Now for 2,000 years, the Holy Spirit has used all kinds of music. And to insist that one particular style of music is more sacred than the other, there's a word for that. It's called idolatry. Idolatry."

While Proctor set out to prove that rock music was not Christian and that Rick Warren was wrong, all Proctor proved with this article is he is a liar and will manipulate the truth to achieve his goal even to the point of making a fellow Christian look bad.

6 posted on 05/16/2004 6:30:31 PM PDT by Between the Lines ("Christianity is not a religion; it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.")
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To: Texas Eagle

I went to a cousin's Episcopal wedding, and one of the hymns was to the tune of "Deutschland Uber Alles".
All the Catholics in the family were trying not to laugh.


7 posted on 05/16/2004 7:47:58 PM PDT by steve8714
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To: hiho hiho

I think there's a difference between music that's suitable for church, and music that's suitable for outside listening. I don't want Christian rock, or bluegrass gospel, in a church service, but I don't think it's bad for a ride in the car.

When I get to heaven, I'm going to hang out with the Methodists and Orthodox Presbyterians, and sing all those great 4-part harmonies. I can do soprano, alto, or tenor.


8 posted on 05/16/2004 8:02:43 PM PDT by Tax-chick (It's possible that I look exactly like Catherine Zeta-Jones.)
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To: hiho hiho

It's not just rock that's not appropriate. For example, putting Christian words to Carmina Burana doesn't make it sound any less Satanic.


9 posted on 05/16/2004 8:11:35 PM PDT by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: steve8714

"I went to a cousin's Episcopal wedding, and one of the hymns was to the tune of "Deutschland Uber Alles".

This is a commonly used hymn tune in Protestant churches, usually used with the words "Glorious things of Thee are spoken."

There was a family in the church that I grew up in that had fled Germany after WWII. The father had been forced to join Hitler's army. I still remember the entire family standing silently when that hymn was used. Too bad someone did not tell the clergy to not use that tune.

Sometimes people have bad associations with tunes or musical styles.


10 posted on 05/16/2004 8:17:47 PM PDT by hiho hiho (+)
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To: hiho hiho

SITREP - WORSHIP vs MUSIC - They rarely are the same


11 posted on 05/16/2004 8:37:35 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: hiho hiho

Having spent 26 years moving around in the military I can tell you that I have seen my share of "churches". Trying to find a faithful church got easier when I realized you could fathom the depth of preaching by a quick survey of music styles. I got to the point of turning around and leaving when I saw drum sets, stages, and PA systems more compatible with rock concerts than proclaiming the gospel. Even in my own "orthodox" church I see the seeds for separation of church services into "traditional" and "contemporary" based on the style of hymnody. Whenever the primacy of preaching is usurped by the need to sway and bob to trendy music I think some of the world has just swept into my special time to meet with God and the saints.


12 posted on 05/16/2004 9:35:04 PM PDT by strongbow
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To: Between the Lines

"There is a name for what Paul Proctor has done here, and it is called bearing false witness."

No.

"To insist that all good music came from Europe 200 years ago; there's a name for that - racism."

"You see folks, to insist that all good music came from Europe 200 years ago is thinly veiled racism, if you want to be truthful about it."

All same-same, no difference. Warren said that thinking all good music came from Europe 200 years ago is racism--and *that* is false witness.

Music reached its high-water mark in that place and during that period, and that's a fact. Happened to be mainly whites that wrote it. If history and geography were different, it could have been blacks or Asians.

After that, music went into a long, slow slide, until the sixties when it went over the cliff and plunged toward the abyss.


13 posted on 05/16/2004 10:51:18 PM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first wars on terrorism.)
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To: dsc
***All same-same, no difference.***

ALL authors know that when they put something within quotation marks it must be an exact quote and that they must not change it for any reason much less to suit their own agenda. I learned this in 9th grade English.

And what about this:

Warren had this to say: "Loud, raucous music with a driving beat is the kind of music his folks listened to."

"Loud, raucous music with a driving beat is the kind of music his folks listened to."--- Dennis Costella (NOT Rick Warren)

Same-Same????? NO, THIS IS FALSE WITNESS. Paul Proctor is a liar.

14 posted on 05/17/2004 6:20:36 AM PDT by Between the Lines ("Christianity is not a religion; it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.")
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To: dsc

So late Baroque (Bach) through the Classical period (Mozart), say 1750 to 1800.

Hard to imagine that Beethoven is the beginning of the down slide.


15 posted on 05/17/2004 8:51:27 AM PDT by dmz
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To: dmz

"Hard to imagine that Beethoven is the beginning of the down slide."

Come on, you know I didn't mean to imply that. We're being approximate with dates, not OC.


16 posted on 05/17/2004 9:05:09 AM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first wars on terrorism.)
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To: Between the Lines

"ALL authors know that when they put something within quotation marks it must be an exact quote and that they must not change it for any reason much less to suit their own agenda."

It's ridiculous to accuse somebody of lying when they misquote someone in a way that means exactly what the person really said. That's putting style over substance.

"And what about this:"

Who cares about that? Maybe one or the other of you is mistaken about who said what. Either way, it's not germaine to the issue.


17 posted on 05/17/2004 9:09:27 AM PDT by dsc (The Crusades were the first wars on terrorism.)
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To: dsc

I really don't know what you meant to imply. I was just going with the words as written.

Post-Mozart, chamber music (IMHO) began to ask a LOT more of the listener. Some don't care for that.


18 posted on 05/17/2004 9:39:40 AM PDT by dmz
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To: hiho hiho
Actually "Deutschland uber Alles" is to a tune by Haydn that was used for protestant hymns and the Austro-Hungarian Imperial anthem before Germany adopted it.

Of course, in the Christian East we have no questions about what is or isn't Christian music. The words must be those of an ode, troparion, kontakion, psalm, or hymn traditionally used by the Church, or new words in the same form approved by the bishop, metropolitan or patriarch of the local church in which they are used (for instance troparia and kontakia for saints whose glorification was recently proclaimed). The setting must also receive episcopal approval, and must meet the canonical guidelines of being sung a capella, and the at most homophony (multiple voices singing the same syllables on different notes at the same time) except for Alleluias which can be melifluous and polyphonic. (The point is to understand the words!)

19 posted on 05/17/2004 12:03:42 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (XC is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!)
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To: Between the Lines

In the Catholic Church, it is not so much that all the good music came from Europe 200 years ago as it is that the new music is written for castrati and Jesuits, with no power or manliness present at all.


20 posted on 05/17/2004 2:48:11 PM PDT by steve8714
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