Retirement Means an End to Ancient Mass

Los Angeles Times ^ | May 10, 2004 | Richard Fausset and Joy Buchanan

[Desdemona]

I kind of liked the line about It's like comparing Andy Warhol to Michelangelo.

The comparison is completely laughable, which I suppose was the point.

[iconoclast]

Thanks for the article ... lots of beauty, lots of integrity, but lots of sadness.

[B Knotts]

FSSP needs our prayers.

BTW, this is way off-topic, but in my Novus Ordo parish, there has recently been a kind of mini-movement among women (naturally, on the 'non-Extraordinary Minister' side of the church (*grin*)) to begin wearing chapel veils.

We have a fine, orthodox (and young!) pastor...perhaps this has helped to encourage orthodoxy among those laity so inclined.

[saradippity]

For your files; Bishop Foley of Birmingham,officially forbad the "ad orientum"pposition approximately four years ago. From my recall and understanding,Mother Angelica's new church was designed with the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in mind. Even the New Order Mass was to be celebrated with the priest facing east,away from the worshippers. As I remembr,the priests always celebrated the mass facing east.

Then came the famous Mahoney pronouncement about how he wished the mass to be in the archdiocese of Los Angeles. Mother questioned his concordance with Rome on her show. Mahoney was furious and she was told to withdraw her criticisms and apologise. She did,in her fashion.

At the same time Mahoney,incensed,I understand,went to Rome and tried to have her pulled off the air,probably using canonical law and calling his allies in the curia to assist him,he was unsuccessful.

He returned to this country and was shooting around garnering support from some B/bishops whose chips he held or who were sympathetic to his ideological agenda. Concomitantly,he tried to wrest control of the station from her using civil law and/or financial mechanisms,rather than church or canon law.He was unable to do that either.

Poor bishop Foley,who had presented many good catechism programs on EWTN must have owed Mahoney one. He wrote a letter to his priests forbidding them to say Mass "ad orientum".This of course,affected all the priests,who celebrated Mass in his diocese which included EWTN's Masses.It was an awful thing to do since as I said earlier,the church was designed with that position in mind.

Mahoney pushed his agenda on the hapless bishops and they passed one of their nasty little nonsense papers forbidding that position. This kind of got tangled up in the "scandal" and remained in question in many dioceses. Many of the priests and B/bishops were looking for relief in this new document the Vatican recently released. The first draft included that as optional to the priest,the final did not. It made me know that no matter how much the B/bishops here may be improving,the ilk of Mahoney still must still have heavy influence in the Vatican. Ugh!!!

Max,have you been on the threads that have talked about the influence of the Vatican's Secretary of State on the hierarchy? This structural change was a result of Vatican II organizational tweaking. I am thinking Sodano is the heavy hitter who's working contrary to some of the orthodox,Catholic Sacred Congregations.

[RFT1]

Before you throw stones, if you consider this a slappable offense, then take a moment to consider why these people feel the way they do. The traditional community, because of being treated like dirt for so long have a seige mentality, and you say "The Hell with............." shows how much charity you have.

[RFT1]

At my old parish I have talked to at leats a dozen FSSP seminarians, trust me, they do not want tio say the NO at all.

[DominusMah]

well,,did u know what is the full story about why SSPX did not or may not at this moment "agree" with Rome. Let me tell u why. I am from Malaysia, I attend the Tridentine Mass,,Mass for all season. Defitnely not what out there claim as "indult mass or latin mass"

There is only one simple thing which SSPX wish Rome will agree upon is :LET ALL THE PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THE TRIDENTINE MASS (INFACT IT IS QUITE FUNNY AND STRANGE TO ASK FOR PERMISSION TO SAY A MASS WHICH HAS BEEN SAY SINCE 6 TH CENTURIES!!) without the interrucp from the local Ordinary.

[B Knotts]

That's interesting and disappointing.

I notice, however that Bishop Foley is 74 years old.

[Siobhan]

I was told Bishop Foley received a 'clarification' from Rome which said a bishop could not forbid his priests to face God (ad orientem) (this was in 2001?), but that the bishop could forbid the posture being broadcast. I hadn't heard this till recently.

So works the demon and the lackey in L.A.

BTW, Cardinal Mahony isn't Irish -- he was adopted, and only God knows where he came from.

[Maximilian]

I should add, the purchase of those buildings should be done through intermediaries. If the wolves discover the intent they won't sell the building to a Catholic.

This happened 20 years ago with St. Vincent's in Kansas City. The diocese refused to sell to the SSPX at full price, but then later sold at half price to a black protestant minister. They didn't realize the minister was only acting as an agent for the SSPX. It demonstrates the attitude of the NO dioceses: it's better to be protestant than a traditional Catholic. And it also illustrates how stupid they are on virtually all practical matters, a stupidity which cost them $600,000 in this case, but which has cost them many hundreds of millions in settlements and bad business dealings in the meantime.

[kstewskis]

from above:

"When we went to Spain or Germany or Italy, it was in Latin, and always the same," said Rains, who grew up in Bordeaux. "You went to Mass and you felt that you were home. It was a wonderful tie, and I think we should go back to it. It made Mass universal."

Bingo!

Isn't that what it is supposed to be? "Universal" was not what I have experienced over years, when going from parish to parish. Of course, all this is post VatII (and not being able to find a Tridentine Mass around me). It can't be more simple than that...how are we to be "universal" if we keep the N.O. mass at "anyone's guess," depending on where it's said?

Fortunately, many of us are blessed in Phoenix that The Tridentine Mass is returning, albeit in only a very few parishes. I understand some of the younger priests are learning The Tridentine Rite, and are brushing up on their latin. Also, there are those who are (re)learing the Gregorian Latin Chants.

Though it is sad that this wonderful priest is retiring, he has left a raging, growing hunger for many to return to the holiness and reverence of Mass. I don't believe it will end there. The faith and desire kept vigil in Phoenix, and it finally is happening. I'm sure in other areas, it too will grow and flourish.

[Maximilian]

Many of the priests and B/bishops were looking for relief in this new document the Vatican recently released. The first draft included that as optional to the priest,the final did not. It made me know that no matter how much the B/bishops here may be improving,the ilk of Mahoney still must still have heavy influence in the Vatican.

What a shame. And what a condemnation of the entire New Mass hierarchy. If they cannot even approve such a simple and uncontroversial thing as Mass ad orientem, then there is no hope for them whatsoever.

the threads that have talked about the influence of the Vatican's Secretary of State on the hierarchy? This structural change was a result of Vatican II organizational tweaking. I am thinking Sodano is the heavy hitter who's working contrary to some of the orthodox,Catholic Sacred Congregations.

Not too much. I have heard this theory before. It's impossible to know whether or not it is true, since the entire theory is based upon secret levers of power in the Vatican. Sodano is often named as the bogeyman, but it seems to be impossible to know whether this is true or not. Besides which, why look for secret agents operating behind the scenes when the guys in the headlines every day are doing as much as they possibly can to push their modernist agenda? I also wonder about the existence of "orthodox,Catholic Sacred Congregations." I don't know of any. Some are very slightly less modernist than the others. But not by much.

[Land of the Irish]

Cardinal Mahony isn't Irish -- he was adopted, and only God knows where he came from.

I'm biting my tongue so hard, it's bleeding.

[Maximilian]

BTW, Cardinal Mahony isn't Irish -- he was adopted, and only God knows where he came from.

Thank God for that! There have been too many traitorous clerics with Irish names. It has become a heavy shame to bear for those of Irish descent. As to where he came from, we have our theories (think Mia Farrow in a NY apartment).

[Maximilian]

Though it is sad that this wonderful priest is retiring, he has left a raging, growing hunger for many to return to the holiness and reverence of Mass. I don't believe it will end there.

Yes, I think you are right. It's like an underground stream that is bound to burst forth in one place or another.

[sockmonkey]

I was told Bishop Foley received a 'clarification' from Rome which said a bishop could not forbid his priests to face God (ad orientem) (this was in 2001?), but that the bishop could forbid the posture being broadcast.

Which is why they no longer broadcast (a few very rare exceptions) the Sunday Mass from the Shrine at Hanceville.

I remember reading Bishop Foley's letter, and it seems I recall him saying that if his decree was not followed, he had the authority to remove the faculties of any Priests from his Diocese who celebrated a televised Mass ad orientum.

I know there were a few times Priests from outside his jurisdiction did celebrate a televised Mass from the Shrine ad orientum. One of them was a canon lawyer who I have met at my Parish.

[St.Chuck]

It's like an underground stream that is bound to burst forth in one place or another.

Keep that thought. It's a good one.

[Dajjal]

Bumpus ad summum

[chatham]

I grew up with thte Latin Mass and thought it was wonderful.

I recently went to mass in NY where there was a 6'0" cross behind the Alter but it did not have the crucified Body of Christ on it. There was no other Crucifix in the auditorium that I could see.
I felt the emty cross was wrong.